Reactions to Christian Peacemaker Teams held hostage

Richard has kicked up a big storm in his post connexions � Blog Archive � Christian Peacemaker Teams held hostage: blogs say “They’re only lefties”. As I check there are 23 comments.

Amazingly to me the comments include a significant number dennouncing pacifists in general and those related to CPT specifically.

Then I started following the links Richard had posted and following the conversations there.

Oh my.

We now have something to look forward to from Leslie Bates:

When I return from work I will have to do a rant on why peace activists are the most vile and morally depraved creatures on Earth. And by that I mean morally worse than those who kidnap, rape, and murder children.

Well I for one can't wait to read that one. (Sorry Les, I don't have a blogger account so I can't respond directly with a comment on your blog).

I am really concerned that a number of US citizens have completely lost the plot. Let us remind ourselves

• Wrong does not become right simply because the wrong was done by your own country
• Calling yourself a Christian does not automatically make you right
• If a Christian follows Jesus Christ then how can they condem people who follow his teaching to love their enemies
• Winning a war does not mean you were right, it means you won a war. It does mean you have more chance of writing the history books to justify yourself
• The difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist usually depends on perspective. What is the difference between the French Resistance killing German soldiers and Quislings and an Iraqi citizen today killing American soldiers or members of the new Iraqi government?
• Winning a war does not make it legal. In the world today the only working definition of a legal war is one sanctioned by the United Nations. The current war in Iraq does not have a clear mandate from the United Nations

Some of the same commentators do not seem to understand pacifism at all. My own position is that I believe that

• It is wrong to kill another human being.
• All people of all nationalities and faiths are of equal value. It is never less wrong to kill person A or person B because of nationality or faith.
• All people of all nationalities, faiths, ages, genders, ... are equally loved by God
• War is rarely if ever justified
• non-violent responses should be sought to all areas of conflict and should be fully resourced over long periods of time before they are abandoned for violence

Other people who have more worthwhile contributions include:

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
     Jesus Christ

Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.
    Jesus Christ while they crucified him

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?
    Mahatma  Gandhi, "Non-Violence in Peace and War"

Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary.
     Mahatma  Gandhi, 'Satyagraha Leaflet No. 13,' May 3, 1919

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
    Mahatma Gandhi, (attributed)

There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people.
    Muhammad Ali

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
    Isaac Asimov, Salvor Hardin in "Foundation"

One day President Roosevelt told me that he was asking publicly for suggestions about what the war should be called. I said at once 'The Unnecessary War'.
    Sir Winston Churchill, Second World War (1948)

Either war is obsolete or men are.
    R. Buckminster Fuller, New Yorker, Jan. 8, 1966

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
    Albert Einstein, (attributed)

Comments

[Richard Hall]

Amen!

[Turbulent Cleric]

Thank you for that Dave.

I read a number of Christian blogs n this yesterday and almost felt ashamed to call myself a Christian by the end, so depressing were they in their idolatry of the war machine and fervent in their denial of th pinciples of good which became flesh in Jesus Christ.

Your post is an excellent reminder of important principlesbacked by a series of excellent quotes.

[John]

Dave, if we hold to your imaginary standard that the only wars that are legal are those sanction by the UN, then only two wars since the organization's founding are legal. Shall we prosecute all of them -- including the British troops who liberated the Falklands, among many other British military engagements of the past 60 years?

Since there is nothing in the UN Charter which establishes this legal principle, nor any experience in "common law", on what basis can you say that it exists other than your own wishful thinking?

[DaveW]

John,

I understood that in the case of the Falkland Islands war there were UN resolutions that supported the British "liberation".

I believe that until Afganistan and Iraq most British Army deployment in recent years has been as UN peacekeepers in Blue Berets.

If we had managed to keep the world to two wars only since the UN was founded then that would have been pretty good news.

>>> Since there is nothing in the UN Charter which establishes this legal principle, nor any
experience in "common law", on what basis can you say that it exists other than your own wishful thinking?<<<

As our Governments are always citing International Law as a reason/requirement for war and that going to war without the support of the UN security council is illegal I assumed that there are laws in this area. But I am not a lawyer. I am an internationalist and therefore it seems to me that getting a consensus that war is required from multiple nations is a good thing as it moves us beyond our own narrow sense of self interest.

[Turbulent Cleric]

The falklands War could be perceived as defensive as it was in response to an act of aggression by Argentine in invading the islands.

Frankly I was opposed to the war on many grounds. It was hardly proportionate. So for what it's worth Baroness Thatcher on war crimes charge would not have bothered me although I think her grounds for defence would be much stronger than Bush

[Gene Stoltzfus]

Your prayers for all detainees in Iraq are solicited in this time when my brother Christians of CPT are being held. This is a moment of great opportunity for Christians to grow and deepen world wide ministry of justice and all other life giving work. Gene Stoltzfus former CPT director

[John]

I haven't been able to find any UN resolutions authorize the UK use of force in the Falklands.

And yes, it would have been nice if the UN have prevented the numerous wars that have occured since its founding. But "would have been nice" is not legal precedent.

So there really is nothing legal that prevents war. In the US, wars would be specifically illegal if not authorized by Congress. This one was.

"Wrong" does not necessarily connote "illegal".

[Wayne M]

While I am not a pacifist or a peace activist and I support the war in Iraq I do find that the way some people choose to disagree can be very disagreeable. Good conversation attempting to gain clarity is often the best course to take.

May I ask a simple question? Would you be against all war or just this one?

For example was the War against Hitler OK?

Was the war for American independence ok?

Thank you

[DaveW]

John,

I struggle with such a US centric view. Why is it ok for the US to decide within itself which wars are legal and yet not allow other countries to do the same. There cannot be a separate/different standard for the US. If we are to have any hope for the future then we have to move away from individual countries having the only say in when they go to war.

Wayne,

I would love to be able to say I am against all war. The problem is with the framing. I am not comfortable with simply saying the war against Hitler was wrong as due to the lack of pacifist agenda for a long time made it very hard to avoid. Yet I hope that like my Great Aunt and Uncle I would have chosen not to fight but to serve the Red Cross (they went all over North Africa).

American War of Independance. Well Gandhi and South Africa prove that independance can be gained without war. Therefore it should have been possible to defeat the British without a war.

Don't forget that pacifism is not cost free, in fact it can be a more costly way to achieve a goal.