My Photo

Search


Twitter Updates

    follow me on Twitter

    Interesting Links

    Other Content

    Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported
    Blog powered by TypePad
    Member since 08/2003

    Become a Fan

    « Terminology decision for genders in the Church | Main | Jasmina Tesanovic: Letter to Laura Bush on Mother's Day »

    Monday, May 15, 2006

    TrackBack

    TrackBack URL for this entry:
    http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d8345296c369e200d8342b07dc53ef

    Listed below are links to weblogs that reference A4G: Introduction part 1.:

    » A4G: Introduction part 2. from 42
    This is the second part of my detailed review of the statement from the inappropriately named Together for the Gospel conference. I am calling my version Altogether for the Gospel :-) The first part is A4G: Introduction part 1. All [Read More]

    » A4G: Summary of Introduction from 42
    In response to Adrian's challenge I have now completed my review of the Introduction to the T4G statement. There are 5 parts to my response and below I have the resulting Altogether for the Gospel Introduction. [Read More]

    Comments

    Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

    Sally

    Good stuff Dave, I especially like the positive angle... we must try to make good news sound like good news!!!

    A little aside- got that asignment in yet hmmmm? No? Me neither... ah well....

    Pam

    Dave, I know you monitor the posts to your blog, so if you don't want me ranting on your blog, feel free to not publish the following rant.

    You are indeed right that the phrase "brothers for Christ" gives me the impression that, as a female Christian, I can just begger off as far as this group is concerned. Which is fine with me if we're talking about the "T4G" folk. I have the feeling that they would just call me a strident feminist, which as Dave and Sally know, is quite a hoot. But in an age when using non-inclusive language is not the norm but done to send a point, then the point is received.

    I'm convinced that the Gospel has been misrepresented too. Only I doubt that the T4G folk would agree with my take on misrepresentation.

    I think that the idea that "God loves everyone equally" has been turned into "God loves the elect better than others" and "I've admitted my sins and my repentance means that God was then able to respond and offer me forgiveness".

    I think that the Gospel has been misrepresented as a code of ethics and conduct rather than an outrageous offer of forgiveness that no-one deserves. No one.

    I think that the Gospel has been misrepresented as a code of purity. And I think that if God IS all about purity and that if we can keep the God's laws ourselves then that code of religion has no need for Jesus, for the cross or for the resurrection.

    And this is why I'm an insidious, evil female preacher, because I preach God's outrageous offer of grace and forgiveness to everyone. (Pedantic point: for good or for evil, I don't believe in universal salvation, but I do believe in God's universal offer of salvation.)

    DaveW

    Pam,

    I welcome your rants (personally I would call them insights or gems, but no accounting for taste).

    And of course you know that I think we need more insidious, evil female preachers like you.

    Go for it.

    Tim

    I like it, Dave, with this one caveat.

    In the NT, does anyone 'stand for' the Gospel? I think I remember people being called to 'stand for' the faith once delivered to the saints, but 'standing for' the gospel? The gospel is proclaimed, celebrated, believed etc...

    It may be insignificant. Then again, it may not be.

    Tim

    Oh - P.S. - there are a couple of places where you need to check your use of apostrophes! Sorry to be nitpicky...

    DaveW

    I hate apostrophe's, they are the work of the devil, anyone who believe's in them will go s'traight to hell. Aaarrrggghhh!

    re standing for the gospel. Yeah see your point. We could say that the gospel stands for us!

    How about "We are Christians united in one great cause - the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Tim

    Yeah - I like that a lot better...

    Pam

    Dave, thanks for taking up the challenge wrt the statement.

    Now, as to how no one seems to be able to follow grammatical rules for plurals and possessives any more!!!!!.......;-)

    sally

    wot is this greammor stuff they is talkin abowt:;/?

    Tim pleeze dont' check owt my greammor!!!

    Glenn Piper

    Hi,
    You seem to be missing the point that as this was a gathering of (mainly) Elders/Pastors, and by the clear reading of scripture that leadership is to be male, the declaration at the end was actually addressed to those who were present at the conference and to other leaders.
    In that context Brothers is quite appropriate.
    The attempt to imply that the T4G leaders have a concept of the Gospel that is wrong is just too ridiculous for comment.

    DaveW

    Glen,

    You are missing multiple points:

    Yes there is a reading of scripture that gives male leadership. But there are other readings and these are accepted many many denominations and Churches that ordain and have been ordaining women for many years. Given this fact it is inappropriate to act as if all Church leaders are male, or as if that is the only valid interpretation of scripture.

    200 years ago conservative Christians argued that slavery was biblical in very similar ways. Do you accept that interpretation was wrong? If so then you have to consider the possibility that huge numbers of churches and denominations that have examined this issue and chosen to ordain women MAY be right, therefore to claim an exclusively correct understanding of the gospel is what is ridiculous.

    Glenn Piper

    Dave, you still to be ignoring the fact that this is a statement that was addressed to those in attendance at this particular conference, so I maintain that the use of Brothers in that context is acceptable.
    200 years ago not everyone thought that way.
    Male leadership is in line with over 1900 years of church history.
    Just because lots of people are wrong does not make something right. If it did we would all be non christian as there are more of those (non-christain)than there is of us (christian)
    As the Bible is so clear on the issue of male leadership in the church (starting from before the fall) then, no,I cannot see how you MAY be right. You may not like it, but the Bible is very, very clear on this issue.

    Glenn Piper

    Hi Dave,
    On another post you asked me for things that Ann Nyland had got wrong. I have replied and I am waiting for your response. (several days)

    DaveW

    Glen,

    The statement was labelled "Together for the Gospel" and appears to be addressed to the whole church.

    200 years ago enough people thought that way for many Churches to make Slavery part of their doctrines eg US Presbyterians among many. Many also rules that only white people could be ordained.

    Male leadership is a tradition that goes back a long way. However, we believe that it is not true to scripture in the same was as we believe slavery is not true to scripture. There are many skilled and qualified people who demonstrate alternative interpretations of the key passages used to justify male leadership, there are also key passages that are ignored by those supporting male leadership.

    You are absolutely wrong to say Scripture is so clear on this. Your interpretation is that it is clear, but that is only one interpretation and in the UK it is not an interpretation held by the majority of Denominations.

    The comments to this entry are closed.