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    « PFOT: Atonement in History | Main | More Good News »

    Sunday, June 10, 2007

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    Adrian Warnock

    David
    Sometimes you and I say such different things it sounds like we are on different planets! But, one thing is true, I am glad to be able to interact with you. Although you might think that I ignore everything you say, the truth is I am very glad that we have this opportunity online to listen to each other. I feel I have learnt a lot through our interactions, not least about actually listening to what others are trying to say. A week or so back you said something about me "waking u up" and stirring you to have something to blog about. Perhaps you are destined (at least in the blogging world) to play the Wesley to my Whitefield if you know what I mean. Those guys fought most of their lives but I understand that their respect for each other returned towards the end of their lives. I dont think either of them denied the importance of their disagreements over doctrine, however. I hope you and I go on debating for many years to come.

    PamBG

    I challenge this view of the gospel. I challenge the mindset that

    fears others....

    And I challenge a view of the 'gospel' that tells us that being a Christian is to be so scared of God that we think we have to get an 'A' in theology or we're going to hell.

    Dave Warnock

    Good one. Like that.

    dave

    ...the gospel doesn't tell us to be scared of God... it tells us to fear him and to rejoice that because of Jesus death God has become infinitely favourable toward us!

    Dave Warnock

    the gospel doesn't tell us to be scared of God... it tells us to fear him

    Jesus teaches us to call God "daddy", are you suggesting that daddy is someone you should fear?

    dave

    "fear" in the reverance and awe / get your heart right biblical sense of the word...

    dave

    ...which is utterly different from the "fear" that those who reject the gospel should have:

    From Hebrews 10:
    v27, fearful expectation of judgement
    v27, fearful expectation of raging fire that will consume
    v30, God's vengeance.
    v30, God's judgement
    v31, falling into the hands of the living God (which is not meant in a nice way)

    I meant to say in my first comment that I think there are those in the reformed camp who talk lots about what we're saved from and little about what we're saved for, and who do portray God as austere and unpleasant when he is loving, just and glorious.

    The seriousness of judgement matters. The glory of calvary matters. And the wonders of the new Christ-centred creation are surely too wonderful and vast to imagine.

    I've been badly in the wrong whenever I've been cold or heartless in my talk about God. I should have a deep sense gravity and gladness as I come confidently to my Father. Profoundly humbled and grateful for the Cross.

    Peter Kirk

    Dave Bluefish, do you think there is a real difference in meaning between fobos/fobeomai "fear" (noun/verb), commonly used in the New Testament in the sense of reverence or awe, and foberos "fearful" in Hebrews 10:27,31 (also 12:21, nowhere else in the NT)? Or are you simply introducing a distinction in meaning to match your theological presuppositions?

    dave

    It seems to me that context determines meaning though you evidently know a whole lot more than me about translation...

    Acts 9:31 looks very different to Hebrews 10:27... in Acts the church lives in fear of the Lord, in Hebrews we're talking about a fearful expectation of judgement if someone rejects the atoning blood of Jesus.

    Both use fear, but the church lives in the fear of the Lord under the Holy Spirit's encouragement. Those who depart from the church are also to fear the Lord, but in their case to fear his judgement.

    Peter Kirk

    Thanks. I agree that the meaning of the fear of the Lord is a complex one. I just don't think it can be divided neatly into two simple concepts as you seemed to suggest. Even for believers there must be some kind of fear of the bad consequences of disobeying God. Acts 9:31 cannot be made to contrast with 5:11, where believers fear the Lord because of what had happened to the disobedient believers Ananias and Sapphira.

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