Reflecting on cancer healing - Todd Bentley style

[NB Debbie, not for you]

In 42: Todd Bentley gets even more violent there is a video clip of Todd Bentley kicking someone with colon cancer. It is a hard kick to the stomach.

In my post I am disgusted by this, but on reflection I think my reaction was over simple. I was reacting to someone coming forward in the hope of healing by God and then being kicked in the stomach.

Now I have been unable to get that clip out of my mind, it keeps coming back to me, so I stepped back a little and reflected on why that might be. The reason is obvious really, nothing very deep and surprising.

I have lost my Nan, my Mum, my Dad, my Father-in-law and several dear friends (most recently it was Richard) to cancer. I have seen cancer close up too many times. For a while I cared for Dad until he needed hospice care for his last week.

In the case of Peter, my Father-in-law, his cancer started in the colon, just like the man in the clip being kicked by Todd Bentley.

I remember the pain, the tenderness, the care with which everyone treated Peter, the horrible discomforts of the cancer and the treatments.

I feel absolute horror that anyone could claim that the God who sent his son to die for all these people I have loved could tell Todd Bentley to kick a cancer sufferer exactly where the cancer is. The very idea has me in tears, squirming in my seat.

All these people I have loved that have died from cancer have had excellent loving care and have been surrounded by prayer, all who knew them are confident that they are now safe with their Lord, Jesus.

When I think of the pain they went through my blood boils at the slightest hint of a thought that anyone would have kicked them while they had cancer. It is inhuman, it should be enough to convict someone of assault. I know I am reacting out of emotional pain here. But all these folks were aware of the love of Jesus for them and that love was about healing (it turned out to be in the eternal sense), wholeness, peace and strength. In the arms of Jesus and filled with his Spirit they felt secure and safe.

I think of the way the gospels present the healing ministry of Jesus. The woman who touched his cloak, the centurion, ... I think of the women bringing their children to Jesus for a blessing. I contrast this with Todd Bentley - do I need to go on, surely it is obvious that Todd Bentley has nothing to do with Jesus.

For the sake of Jesus, for the sake of all who suffer from cancer, do not support Todd Bentley or any ministry connected with him.

Oh and by the way I have often expressed my frustration with people who sue for money, but if someone I loved got treated in this way by Todd Bentley I would sue him for millions.

I have just been thinking of R (see  42: Pam's Real Life), at about the time she moved into the hospice I gave her a "holding cross", she clung onto it right to the end and it was cremated with her. A lady of great faith, courage and commitment to spreading the good news even when in hospital - Todd Bentley is the sort of person who would have kicked R.

If you want a model for healing and cancer, I have lots and none of them is Todd Bentley, all of them have revealed Jesus in new ways to me, bearing good fruit right to the end.

For more on Todd Bentley see:

• 42: Todd Bentley gets even more violent.
• 42: The teaching at Revival Fires, Dudley.
• 42: The Todd Bentley revival.
• 42: Todd Bentley and prosperity.
• 42: More on Todd Bentley.
• 42: Top Bentley post.
• 42: Todd Bentley links.
• 42: 10 things I believe about the Holy Spirit.

Comments

[graham]

It strikes me that Bentley may just not be very bright.

Maybe he didn't pause to consider that someone with this condition could be particularly sensitive in this area. (I can't imagine him doing the same to someone with testicular Cancer.)

Btw, if anyone has a link to the original video, that would be cool. I find the text distracting.

[Dave]

Graham,

H'mm not very bright?

He does have a criminal record with prison sentence for sexual assault when he was a teenager.

Now he says he does not need help, has he found an "acceptable" outlet for his violence?

Before seeing this, could you have imagined any "Christian" healer kneeing anyone with cancer anywhere?

Yes I agree it would be good if someone could link us to original video's.

[BD]

Richard put it up for you at connexions.

Gibson BC pastoral association would not allow Bentley to hold meetings - it's in a 2001 article by Rick Hiebert, Report Magazine. None of these ministers were prepared to send their young people or allow them near him. And not just because of his juvenile record. His juvie record isn't just about sexual assault either.

Bentley's violence didn't stop in his teens.

We can pray he will be stopped and charged now that his behavior is being seen world wide.

[Peter Kirk]

Dave, I understand how cancer is a sensitive subject for you, as well as a sensitive point for the sufferer. I can see why everyone treats the whole matter with such care. No one dares even to touch the sensitive point.

But of course the doctors do. They bombard the cancer with radiation, target destructive drugs at it, cut it out with knives if they can. We accept that. In this case, Todd hits it with his knee (he does not kick it), because God tells him to, he says. Why do we think this must be wrong? Is this from our emotions, or from any real logic? Perhaps God, or at least Todd, knows that our pussyfooting around with cancer doesn't help, what it needs is some decisive action.

Indeed I can even see why hitting the cancer could help medically, by disrupting its blood supply and inflaming the surrounding tissues so they can do a better job of rejecting the cancer.

Please don't let your emotional distaste cloud your judgment.

[Dave]

Peter,

It seems you have never journeyed alongside someone being treated for cancer. Your description of the work of Doctors, Surgeons & Nurses is way, way off. You are using very emotive language yourself (cutting cancer out with knives as if they grab the nearest kitchen knife and start cutting people up without any warning, permission, training, preparation or oversight.

You are mocking the work and care that has gone on over decades to research treatment cancer in ways that are more gentle, precise and effective.

You are mocking the tenderness, concern, respect and care that is shown by everyone I have met in the medical profession caring for cancer patients which cannot be compared to someone kneeing you in the stomach with no warning.

You talk of the violence of chemo etc, but that is administered with the knowledge and consent of the patient, it is carefully monitored and tuned to minimise the side effects.

Your logic seems based on an ineffectual Holy Spirit who is not powerful enough to heal cancer without violence. Wow, my experience of the power of the Holy Spirit is quite different.

I too have seen the Holy Spirit heal people. I was fortunate to spend time with Malcolm White at Westminster Centrall Hall, he has a powerful healing ministry. The way the Holy Spirit is at work in those healing services (and so many others all around the world) is entirely consistent with Scripture and the teaching & practice of Jesus. There is no violence, no manipulation but love poured out and a powerful presence of the Spirit at work.

You say my judgement is clouded, yet still there is no evidence that these people to whom violence is done are healed.

When it is claimed that the Holy Spirit is suddenly working in a new way (though violence) evidence must be presented to show this is of God. Where is this man and his Doctors?

[Dan]

Hiya, hope its okay to make a comment - was v interesting and thought-provoking to read your post (I confess to being very blessed and encouraged by Florida and all that's going on).

Aside from blogging, I am a full-time children's nurse in a hospice in the UK and actually I would venture to say that Peter Kirk is quite accurate with his description of how we (the medical and nursing profession) would go about fighting cancer.

I've worked on Bone Marrow Transplant units and oncology units as a qualified children's nurse and while we would strive to be as accurate as we can with the choice of chemotherapy used, there is most certainly a degree of "hit and miss", and as for fine-tuning the effects - sadly we still have not managed to element the more violent effects of chemo such as hair loss, vomiting, etc etc. (We simply try and combat the effects with other drugs to minimise and not eradicate because we can't - the effects).

In terms of surgery, I have had the experience of being in many hours of surgery upon children and actually again I think Peter is quite accurate. No, of course the surgeons don't grab kitchen knives and start cutting. But surgical blades are just - very very sharp knives. That's all. Surgery of course is all done in a sterile environment and as accurately as possible - but still at the end of the day, flesh is being sliced apart and it is certainly not dinner-time watching. That's why many nurses and doctors don't even have the stomach for theatre - its too much for them.

I too have lost many, many close relatives (including my Grandmother and Grandfather) to cancer. I myself have to have regular checks for bowel cancer because apparantly the odds of getting are quite huge. But I think desperation for the supernatural healing of God would overshadow my desire for dignity, peace etc if necessary.

If medical science holds up it's hands and says; "We can't do anymore" - and I have sat in hundreds of meetings with parents and children where we have admitted that - then if the option is being kneed in the stomach, or kicked or punched for HEALING ... then I'd take it!!

I do accept that I personally haven't seen the medical evidence of that actually working yet. But I personally wouldn't rule out bizarre behaviour if the end result was a supernatural miracle.

PS: If I was blind, and some dude came along and spat in some mud and rubbed it in my eye, I don't think I would be initially very impressed. Spit in my eye?! Eugh. But Jesus did it!!

Just wanted to share a bit from my nursing experience with children with cancer.

[Dave]

Dan,

Of course you are welcome to comment.

I can't reconcile the views.

The man did not know he was going to be kneed, it was not explained to him, he was given no choice. If I have heard anything of Jesus, and go to a Christian healing service is there anything in 2,000 years of history that would mean I would expect to be kneed in the stomach - no nothing at all.

Please I am not in anyway against the healing power of the Holy Spirit, I love it, I want more of it. But where is the evidence that

a) the Holy Spirit has suddenly decided "enough with the non violent approach I need the help of violence to heal people"

b) that the people who are being kneed, kicked etc are actually being healed. People talk of waiting for the fruit, here is the measure of the fruit - are these claims of healing through violence true?

[Jon]

Has anyone checked on the status of the person being "kicked"? I mean what if they were healed. You are assuming it is wrong because they are not, what if they no longer have cancer.
Then you know what? Kicking (or kneeing) was the most loving thing to do in order to bring healing.
"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."
John 7:24 NIV

[Dave]

Jon, then show us the evidence healing. Scepticism comes from a comparison with the life of Jesus and 1,000's of years of the work of the Holy Spirit. They do not support violence. Now you claim the Holy Spirit is working in a new violent way - show the evidence of healing by violence.

[Try Google Next Time]

The man that was kicked by Bentley has been interviewed since the night he was prayed for, and guess what...his cancer is now gone. Read for yourself.

http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2008/07/18/rogers-story-the-stage-4-cancer-patient-assaulted-by-todd-bentley-questions-by-australia-ministry/

I think the next time you folks want to rush to judgment about another person and label them as an apostate, a liar, a fraud or anything else, I suggest you think again. Let God deal with the hearts and minds of people and leave the judgment to HIM.

I wonder if you'll have the common decency to admit that you might be wrong?

[Dave]

Hi google,

a) in that story the cancer is not gone completely (although much improved)

b) that story has no verification by doctors yet

c) you make a leap from God healing to God working for the first time through violent healing. Might it not be that God works for God in all situations.

d) I wonder if you will have the courage to admit your name when accusing others of lacking decency.

[Try Google Next Time]

My name is of no importance to you or anyone else here. This is the Internet, not a social club where we have to wear name tags.

Jesus said that we should lay hands on the sick and they will recover. He is apparently recovering as evidenced by his own testimony. It may not be immediate, but his progress astounded even the physician...unless you don't believe his recollection of the doctor's reaction.

Also, if you're waiting for the doctor to publish something don't hold your breath, even if the man is completely healed, that isn't something a doctor is likely to do.

Also, I don't particularly care how God chose to heal this man. I'm quite confident that people like you would have been disgusted at Jesus when he used mud and saliva to heal the eyes of the blind man. You sound like a Pharasee complaining about Jesus healing people on the Sabbath. Just because it doesn't fit into your mold of how you think God works doesn't make it incorrect.

Work out your own faith before God and leave the pronouncements of who is and who is not operating in the Spirit to the only competent Being capable of discerning the hearts and minds of men.

[Dave]

Dear Mr/Ms hide behind a pseudonym,

You have clearly not read what I have been writing.

I absolutely believe in the work of the Holy Spirit today including in healing (as in cure) but also remember that healing (wholeness) is more than cure and for all who believe will be fully realised in the new heaven and new earth.

I also note that ABC's nightline were unable to get verification of any healing.

I have many times written about Jesus using saliva and mud in healing and pointed out the cultural context where saliva was generally seen as having healing properties.

I absolutely deny that considering, reflecting and attempting to apply discernment is Pharisaic.

I deny your implication that Jesus worked healing through violence and that violence (show or otherwise) is compatible with the life, teaching and healing ministry of Jesus.

I deny your right (especially as an anonymous person) to tell me how to minister to the Churches that I serve.

[Bobby Clements]

1). If what you say about that man with cancer was really in pain, he would not be smiling...
2). Todd Bentley ministers in his own way that brings people to God.
3). People see and get healed by God during his services even without coming to the alter or just by touching their TV while watching him.
4). If Todd Bentley was not really being used by God, his ministry will soon be gone but he is still traveling around the whole world to bring more people to Christ than you could ever bring to God in your whole life.
5). People that don't understand how God works because they have not read their Bible word for word completely through from Genesis to Revelation say Todd is in the wrong.
6). Those people bring curses upon themselves (according to the Bible) because they are insulting the man of God.
7). Even in the Bible, Saint David was not a fool to do any harm to King Saul because he knew King Saul was a man of God.
7). Delete this Bog while you still have time lest God will take away from you personally. >>>>READ THE BIBLE AND SEE WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU DO NOT REPENT AND TURN FROM YOUR GOSSIP AGAINST GOD'S SERVANT TODD BENTLEY<<<<<

[Blue, with a hint of amber]

1) Eh?
2) Does everyone have an "own way" that is beyond reproach from people who have concerns or questions?
3) Good. It would be worth letting some secular agencies have access to the medical records.
4) Did you mean used by God TV or used by God? I don't doubt God is working through todd bentley - but that does not make everything add up. God worked through Peter but Paul still challenged him on issues.
5) Had any of the disciples read the canon word for word?
6) So no Christian can ever ask pertinent questions of another believer? If everything is in order then let the truth be known. Threatening curses is a bit odd - Jesus did not threaten Thomas with curses when he asked to see evidence.
7)What harm is it to ask questions? If there are answers then let them be known.
8) I didn't realise you were in charge of God's cosmic punishments. If God didn't want people to discuss and discern elements of faitht hen why did he give us the gift of discernment?

What people want is a bit of clarity - not threats against their eternal status.

[Try Google Next Time]

I absolutely believe in the work of the Holy Spirit today including in healing (as in cure) but also remember that healing (wholeness) is more than cure and for all who believe will be fully realised in the new heaven and new earth.
**************************

Amusing...it never ceases to amaze me when "pastors" regurgitate the tired canard that wholeness for the believer will only be realized in the afterlife. I recall Jesus stating that, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." Do some research on the Greek term "zoe" and then tell me that wholeness is reserved for heaven. No wonder why people think church is so depressing and irrelevant...

***************************
I also note that ABC's nightline were unable to get verification of any healing.
***************************

You're depending on the secular media, who want nothing more than to discredit anything and everything spiritual to verify healings? As I stated before, doctors are reticent to make claims of a miraculous healing, so I don't really see this as proving or debunking much of anything.

***************************
I have many times written about Jesus using saliva and mud in healing and pointed out the cultural context where saliva was generally seen as having healing properties.

I absolutely deny that considering, reflecting and attempting to apply discernment is Pharisaic.
***************************

Of course you deny this, you're the one sitting in judgment against another believer, you HAVE to be right, your own arrogance and pride demand it. I'm sure you always feel as if you have the moral right, more likely the obligation to judge others, and why not, it's the most common sin the modern church. We can't bear to let the Holy Spirit do HIS job of convicting and dealing with people, we have to get in our two cents worth and hide under the guise of "discernment" or the like.

I called you a Pharasee because you stated in essence that "God doesn't work this way" so in your words, "Todd Bentley has nothing to do with Jesus. Sounds completely analogous to Pharasees condeming Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, but what do I know, I'm not a minister...

***************************
I deny your implication that Jesus worked healing through violence and that violence (show or otherwise) is compatible with the life, teaching and healing ministry of Jesus.
***************************

I don't particularly care what you deny or affirm, the proof of the healing is in the testimony. Though you won't be willing to admit that he's been healed until he dies from natural causes at 100. As for violence, you should check with the money changers in the temple and see if they though Christ's actions were violent (i.e., overturning tables, cracking whips, etc.) of course I'm sure you've got some cutesy theological reason why those actions weren't violent.

***************************
I deny your right (especially as an anonymous person) to tell me how to minister to the Churches that I serve.
***************************

What is this "I deny your right" nonsense? Is this a phrase they taught you in Bible school? I don't care what you present in your church, other than the fact that I'm quite confident that the people you minister to experience condemnation and judgment from the pulpit with the frequency with which you proclaim who is and is not a "True Believer."

[Try Google Next Time]

Did you mean used by God TV or used by God? I don't doubt God is working through todd bentley - but that does not make everything add up. God worked through Peter but Paul still challenged him on issues.
***************************
I totally agree with you on this point, but what is going on here is FAR more than challenging Bentley. Outright declarations that, "surely it is obvious that Todd Bentley has nothing to do with Jesus" are clearly not meant to admonish or correct Bentley in love in an effort to teach as should be done with a fellow believer. Instead, Warnock takes it upon himself to proclaim that Bentley has nothing to do with Jesus. Do you think this was the tactic that Paul used to teach and admonish...that when you see another believer who you think is in error to publicly denegrate them and question their faith and salvation and intimate that they are evil?

Where is the love of Christ in anything posted about Bentley on this website? I see nothing but disdain and contempt masquerading as discerment, exhortation and teaching.

[Dave]

Mr Google,

You have clearly not read much of my blog, you have never heard me preach. Interesting that you can condemn me so vehemently.

If you read my other posts about Todd Bentley you will find a more accurate picture.

You might also notice that this post pre-dates the various interviews with "Roger" and that I have commented on them elsewhere.

[Pat]

Hello re: "Cancer addressed with a knee in the stomach by Bentley"

- There are other faith healers that have walked years before who did similar, ie. Oral Roberts, when he held tent meetings, sick were healed in various ways by contact with Roberts, one way which was unusual was by Roberts punching into the area of the body, when he commanded a spirit that brought that sickness to com out of the person's body.

I do not think Bentley means it as violence, to hurt or harm, I believe he believes it is the way God told him to do it.
It is unusual and may not be violent, although it looks like that. Its unusual. As long as the person is unharmed and becomes well. If it hurt the person, then I don't believe that was the Lord's work.

Jesus did 'unusual' - for ie. spitting into the earth making mud and putting it on someone's eyes.

ie. calling a woman and her daughter a dog, (it was cultural and addressed the sep. between Jews and non Jews, etc. the word Jesus used meant actually a puppy, and it wasn't like us calling someone down, I dont think exactly, but nevertheless,it was unusual.

Unusual doesnt mean violent if the Holy Spirit directed it, if so, then it has a purpose which will bring about a God result.

[Pat]

from Pat,

To brothers above, I would like to say, - I can understand both your povs, and both are equally valid, it is valid to be appalled, esp. if you have loved ones that suffered from cancer, and you saw up close how bad it was.

It is also valide to explore what is actually going on, and it might not be what it appears at the first look.

It may not be violence at all, it may be that the H.SP. directed it, it is possible, Jesus did unusual things when healing people, so did Oral Roberts, U.S.A., who punched into peoples bodies while addressing the demonic spirit attached to certain diseases, telling it to get out.

Jesus also addressed demon spirits that brought sickness,and told them to leave.

Jesus spit and made clay, and called a woman and her daughter a dog, both unusual.

At the surface and first look it can be appalling, - we cannot know for sure, did H.SP. direct it? for a reason? is Todd losing it? is Todd mean, doesnt he care about people suffering?
I dont think he was being mean to the guy and not caring about the sickness.

I definitely understand the appalled pov.

Please kiss and make up you two brothers who spoke above.

Love to you, all, we are on the same side, the same team.

[Pat]

Dear Brother Dave Warnock,

I agree wth nameless poster, in that you should repent for judging and downing Bentley the way you have.

I understand that he upset you in things he did, said, and looks like, re your own history of loved ones being ill.

Asking God to forgive you for sayiing the things you did re Todd, and repenting for saying them, is important, becasue
the bible does instruct,

"touch not my annointed and do my prophets no harm"

If Todd is from the Lord and you are criticizing and downing him, then you are doing it to the Lord.

repent of this, and also, you need to not give the enemy any ground to stand on re you, as unforgiveness and judging, and condemning, etc. and especially disrespect toward anyone annointed and sent from God is doing the same ugly stuff to God, for which there is a penalty, maybe not from the Lord, but the enemy will attack yo and have ground to stand on agasint you, which you do not want.

God is good and understands you, he is patient, kind, not easily offended, good to all, He is the love chapter, 1 cor. 13 personified, or on legs if you will.
That is describing what He is like.

"Touch not my annointed and do my prophets no harm"

Todd seemed to be annointed.

Dont laugh or make jokes or ridicule in any way at all, it is dangerous,

ie Elisha and those who mocked him, who all died young, because Elisha had them killed, for the Honour of the Lord's sake.

This is where the bears came out of the woods and devoured all those who mocked.

It is a dangerous thing to do what you did, please repent of it asap.
-why? do I want you to? because I love you bro.

[aj]

"Touch not the Lord's anointed"
or
"test every spirit"

Where's the line. When do we stop testing and start accepting?

Above all we should be good Bereans and check EVERYTHING against the light of scripture.

Man does not appoint man, God does.
When God appoints a man to a ministry, the scriptures give us plenty of permission to check him out - nothing at all wrong there ..........
in fact it is healthy.

Also told that we shall know them by their fruits, which are.....
love, joy, peace, self-control

[aj]

Pat,
I am concerned about your last post - it sounds like one of those chain letter threats "pass this on or you'll die at noon"

I've heard enough people saying "don't criticise him" - like we're not supposed to use discernment.

Well, turns out, the proof WAS in the pudding and that he WAS known by his fruits....all very sad for body of Christ, some of us are just trying to witness to our friends and family without hucksters making it more difficult.

Lee Grady from Charisma magazine has written a piece which basically says
"Yes, we were gullible......we've got so little discernment, we would believe the antichrist....it was cultic of God TV to call anyone demonic for criticising Todd"

Read it for yourself - its all over the blogosphere