What worries me about the Methodist Church

Following on from 42: What keeps me in Methodism. Just some very rapidly made notes to get the discussion going.

1. Existence.

I worry that the Methodist Church will not exist within in a relatively short period of time. Obviously I am not alone, anyone who can read basic numbers and look at an age profile would have significant concerns. Yet there is also plenty of encourage reports on change and response to change.  The church will certainly need to look a lot different in 5 or 10 years which could be a fantastic new start for us or a very rapid disappearance.

2. Maintenance not Mission

In too many places the focus has been for many years on maintenance not mission. I am fortunate that I have seen much of the opposite and have some very encouraging mission shaped church & circuit stuff at the moment. But we have got to get a big cultural shake up to really build the momentum for change that more and more people see is required.

3. Preachers and Worship Leaders

I am concerned that out Local Preachers Meetings have in too many places been stagnant and there has not been enough ongoing development of our Preachers. Nor have our worship leaders been properly integrated into our planning worship. We need to develop more flexible approaches that will encourage development and growth by those who have been preaching for many years as well as provide more local control over service style, content and theme.

4. Poor Teamwork

In too many places we see people working in isolation as preachers, ministers, layworkers,  superintendents etc. As resources are spread thinly we need to function more as teams to make the most of each other and to provide more consistent worship and experience of fellowship.

5. Equality

We have some excellent theology that backs up our belief that all people can be called by God to any role within the Church and to make it impossible to discriminate on the basis of gender, race etc. However, we do need some significant steps to be made to in policies, procedures and monitoring to ensure that we do not allow discrimination anywhere through both prevention and monitoring.

6. Discipleship

We need to refocus on building deep discipleship throughout the Church. We have too many people who do not appear to have a deeply rooted faith and have not encouraged people to develop and grow in their discipleship through small groups and active participation & theology.

7. Buildings & Finance

We need to close a large number of buildings that are no longer fit for purpose, that are underused and are costing us too much money to keep open for an hour a week for just a few people. We spend far too much money on building maintenance and repair. Yet even then it too often is not enough to make the buildings attractive and environmentally sane for 21st Century uses. We need to thoroughly review our use of capital funds and redirect spending into direct mission and out of buildings.

8. Superintendents

We have too many superintendent ministers and too many who are persuaded to take on this role when neither called, nor trained nor equipped for the task.

9. Too much concentrated load

We focus too much on ordained ministry. This continually acts as a bottleneck. We need to free our people to get on without the paid clergy.

10. We take too small and local a picture

We need to invest some resources and authority in thinking more strategically across areas to merge circuits (and churches), close churches, open churches, focus ecumenical efforts, start fresh expressions, train pioneer ministers and get on with mission in 1001 ways.

11. Lack of Consistent Vision

We need longer term vision and consistency. Too many (often good) ideas come and go (Our Calling, Priorities for the Methodist Church, Pray without Ceasing), we need to define what we are about and then stick at it for a few decades. Our calling was good, but the priorities did not mesh with it and came too soon. Pray without Ceasing was excellent but needed to simply continue on an ongoing basis.

Comments

[Sally]

yes- me too!

[Olive Morgan]

Too near Christmas for me to reply as I would like to. Here we have closed churches (and joined congregations together), we have several churches that have given up their premises and are functioning well without them, and we have a very lively working together of four Circuits (called Fourward) especially in regard to training. Yes, we have weaknesses, especilly in regard to Discipleship. I wish I had time to go on ......

[Methodist Preacher]

My first experience of my own Methodist Church in Birmingham was very good and positive, as was my contact with Easter People. I felt at home with the socially committed, evangelical/charismatic theology then offered.

In recent years we have been appointed with Ministers who have insisted that we adopt their view of what is a "Methodist". The sponaneity has gone out of worship and the Holy Spirit has moved on. Numbers are now in sharp decline, and out church now reflects what is happening across much of the wider circuit and beyond.

My initial view of Methodism was very positive, but over recent years I despair that it can really be pulled round to become a positive place from which to proclaim and live the gospel.

However it is good to see that there are some who are positive and I think Martyn Atkins must be given as much support as possible.

There's a good article in today's Guardian 2 that shows how the Salvation Army is changing by going back to its roots - possibly something we need to look at.

[PamBG]

I'm not seeing all the comments here that are listed in your sidebar.

I think these are fair comments.

At the risk of being pilloried, though, I'm not so much worried about number 1. I don't think that Methodism will ever go out of existence but part of me believes that many people will not make changes until those changes are forced upon them (e.g. I believe that congregations won't combine, on the whole, until each individual congregation can no longer afford to remain independent).

What's the worst scenario? All our buildings disappear and ministers can no longer be stipended; I'm not sure that's a disaster scenario. (Can I add some nice soothing noises to the effect that I don't mean to make light of the fact that ministers may end up 'unemployed'; in this post I'm looking at the issue in a fairly cold and rational way.)

[Blue, with a hint of amber]

I worry that the Methodist Church will not exist within in a relatively short period of time.

I struggle to understand all your positives about methodism and criticism of other movements while being under the shadow of the situation you describe.

[Dave]

Oh good the comments are appearing again. Will update the post to reflect that.

Olive: hopefully when thing quiet down we can get more wisdom from you on this.

MP: I too think Martyn is a great encouragement and should be supported.

Pam. I agree. Worried is the wrong term for #1. I put it there to ensure I am being realistic (and statistically it can appear likely). You can make as light as you like about me being unemployed. It does not worry me. I'll live off my wife :-)

Bwahoa,

Ahh. Well it is partly about perspective. How long is a relatively short time? Say 50 years? Me I am praying that Jesus will return tomorrow so it is not such a big concern. Plus I am not in the Church for the survival or not of the Methodist Church but to serve the Kingdom of God.

Anyway even the bleakest estimates of the future of the Methodist Church still have us lasting longer than NFI has existed so far :-)

Plus I really don't believe God has finished with the Methodist movement so why would I jump ship when there are no attractive alternatives.

[Jason]

Interesting list. As an Anglican, many are as relevant to the Church of England also.

Must say though I really see #1 through my mother in laws Church (Methodist) and at least the CofE has the benefit that if someone new moves in and has a flicker of interest the CofE church is usual the first point of call (rightly or wrongly)

[Dave]

Jason,

I am unconvinced. What causes the flicker of interest in the first place?

We need to be reaching out to people who have been un-churched or de-churched for generations.

Oh and even if this were true establishment is a very very high price to pay!

[PamBG]

If I remember correctly the predictions were that 20 years ago Methodism would be non-existent by now.

I don't particularly see why our focus should be on getting bums on seats; I think our focus should be building the Kingdom of God. And if the British Methodist Church needs to die in order to bring in the Kingdom, then so be it.

Where I am, I don't see much difference between the Anglican Church and the Methodist Church. The Anglicans seem to have a similar age profile and rate of decline.

A possible tangent but possibly not....On Ship of Fools, there has been a comment that churches that have a theology of being broad-church are declining and those with a particular focus like Anglo-Catholic, Celtic, Conservative Theology, etc. are growing. I suspect that this is correct.

The 'theological problem' I have is that I think that knowing how to get along with people that I don't agree with is absolutely core and central to the Gospel, so 'broad church' is absolutely a core value to me. I don't want to ditch this for 'them and us' theology, which I think is sinful.

Personally speaking, I'm not of the view that revival is going to happen any minute in the UK and that the church will only know that God is with us when our churches are packed. My view is that Gospel Christianity is currently 'in Babylon' in the UK. I think our mission is to keep the faith and avoid the temptation of adopting 'them and us theology'. God will not allow the gospel values of reconciliation, forgiveness, tolerance and loving one's neighbour to die.[1]

[1] Usual caveat that I don't think that Methodism is the only denomination that has these beliefs. I might even include the URC in that description if you really push me. But not in front of Kim, of course. ;-)

[Dave]

Pam,

"Where I am, I don't see much difference between the Anglican Church and the Methodist Church. The Anglicans seem to have a similar age profile and rate of decline."

Many things are worse for Anglicans. Unity and equality to name two. A very expensive legacy of buildings is another.

Not sure that narrow focus (especially if focus is on style of worship) need mean not getting along with people you disagree with - although it is clearly the case for some.

I think we need a far better reflection process on what revival might be. I am pretty close to being confident God is not likely to bring revival to restore Christendom.

Dealing with building the kingdom (or at least getting alongside what God is doing to build the kingdom) is much more exciting and we have a long way to go to work out how to do it in a post-christendom context.

Oh and I suspect that those churches facing decline with faithful witness and with a willingness to change will actually be better placed in post-christendom than those attempting to build a new christendom.

PS I'll keep you secret from Kim. He is probably busy writing another Christmas letter to all his friends.

[PamBG]

Dave I agree with all of the above.

And I totally agree with: Dealing with building the kingdom (or at least getting alongside what God is doing to build the kingdom) is much more exciting and we have a long way to go to work out how to do it in a post-christendom context.

[Fat Prophet]

tried to post a comment but it will not let me - keep getting error message saying we cannot accept this data

[Dave]

Fat Prophet, feel free to email me and I put the comment up. Typepad are having a few commenting problems at the moment.

[Methodist Preacher]

I take Pam's point about suggestions twenty years ago that Methodism would be dead.

However during those twenty years there has been a dramatic increase in life expectancy - especially among non-smokers, non drinkers from middle income occupations.

The timebomb is still there, I just think by God's grace - and the resources of a wonderful health service - many congregations are still able to stagger on. This will change over the next few years.

However sometimes I do see signs of hope: we have a few churches in our circuit which seem able to recruit and hold all age groups.

Finally we shouldn't dismiss the power of the Holy Spirit to ignite a revival, perhaps that should be our prayer priority. Sadly the very word "revival" has been hi-jacked by the more reactionary parts of the Christian family.

[Fat Prophet]

1. Existence.
You are I think one of many who are concerned about this issue, but I suspect that the Methodist church will hang on in there for a few more years. It may be that in twenty years it will be a much smaller and much changed entity or conversely if we grasp the new start concept it could be the biggest thing since John and Charles Wesley.
2. Maintenance not Mission
Fully agree with this point.
3. Preachers and Worship Leaders
You raise an interesting point here about our LP meetings being stagnant but I believe we could take it a little further and say that some of our preachers have become stagnant. It seems to me that apart from those who do the current Faith and Worship course once folk received the letter from the President at their accreditation service there was a view that they have ‘made it’. There are no real checks and balances in place and I really do believe that every preacher should have an assessment once a year similar to the ones that our on trial colleagues have.
In respect of development of our preachers again I believe you are right that this is not something that has been universally taken up – I am not entirely sure those who complete the Faith and Worship course are always involved in much development work. It has to be said too that given the age and preaching experience of many of our preachers it is often difficult to enthuse them about this area. I have to say that I think the name of our development process is enough to put anybody off as it sounds like something really intense and difficult.
It may be that my comments on this matter will provoke some response from others but let me just share this one experience with you. Recently I went to one of our churches and was greeted very warmly with a number of people saying they were really pleased that someone was taking the service with a bit of life in them. At the conclusion of the service many of the people made similar comments and said that they had experienced a run of about six weeks of preachers who were all very good, sound preachers but had no humour or real life in much of what they said. One of the ladies summed it up by saying she felt like they had been in a desert and on the day I was there had reached a water hole – I do worry that we are not communicating the joy of the Lord to our congregations and that often there is not even a glimmer of joy in our weekly worship.
4. Poor Teamwork
I believe you are right on this point and in some ways I don’t see it improving in the next couple of years given the recent article in the Methodist Recorder about minister numbers and retirements in the next few years.
5. Equality
I do have some thoughts on this but they are in a much broader sense that what you probably mean by equality.
6. Discipleship
Again you are correct and perhaps there is a lot to be said for the old Methodist Class meeting as a way to help our members grow and develop. There are also so many tolls around these days to help with this process.
7. Buildings & Finance
This one is a real issue for many of our folk but again you are right there are some buildings that should have been closed down many years ago. The real difficulty here I believe is the conception that the church is the building and i am not sure how we will ever change that view.
8. Superintendents
I cannot comment on this as I have only known two Superintendents with a twenty year gap between the two so my experience of this is fairly limited.
9. Too much concentrated load
There is much that we expect our ordained colleagues to do as a church that seems to drop at their feet because they are the ordained minister. I hold the view that there are things that could and should be done by our people and not just left with the clergy. One of the things that I cannot understand, other than it is in standing orders is that our ministers act as chair at all our meetings. I am of the opinion that this is a role that could be done by other people and often we will have people who are gifted in this area or experienced through other activities they are involved in. As with many things we do not always seem to get the round peg in the round hole.
10. We take too small and local a picture
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Not sure if there are enough yes’s but you get my drift I’m sure.
11. Lack of Consistent Vision
You raise a good point here – it seems that we have to have a new ‘official’ plan/campaign every year when as you say it might be better to have a longer term say five years to allow something to run and then move on. In our business we have a corporate plan which runs for three years and gives us something to concentrate on for a reasonable period of time without worrying about what the next idea or flavour of the month will be.

[Dave]

FP,

Thanks for fighting through the commenting problems with your helpful response.

[Angie]

How can I possibly be worried about the future of Methodism when there are amazing people like us willing to wrestle with such questions - unless - of course - all we are willing to do is wrestle with the questions and not get on and DO something about it.
I take great delight in knowing that I am part of a world-wide denomination with a rich history and heritage which people here are just starting to wake up to again.

I love the fact that our systems and structures are so flexible that we are able to express ministry in a million and one ways - provided that we are prepared to stand by our calling rather than some pre-supposed understanding of what ministry is or isn't.

I delight in the fact that we welcome rebels, love those who rock the boat, and still find grace enough to want to continue to worship and fellowship with those who are too scared even to play with power-point or have a few modern songs in worship.

As the man said - its easier to ask forgiveness than seek permission - so if you are unhappy about it CHANGE it.

A deeper question however might be - how many of us who are concerned, are concerned enough to attend class meetings, hold ourselves properly accountable before God and before the people of God for our own growth in grace?

Let's start at the beginning.. and lets look at ourselves first.

Class matters - if you don't have one - form one.

[dave perry]

Hi Dave, many thanks for your post and especially for sharing your passion and commitment which flows through each of the points you make so well. I am with Tom Stuckey on this one: I sense that we are on the edge of Pentecost. Our developing confidence in God and passion for mission and discipleship is key. Denominational Death and Resurrection is happening before our eyes, and the second of these terms is as real and evident as the first. One example: as I look across the District I serve I see fantastic ministers who are really up for the new thing that God is doing in our midst - just like you. Looking at the people God has and is calling into ministry fills me with such hope that the future will look very different. I have the strongest sense that everything is up for grabs and that, like Emergent, the Holy Spirit is re-energising us for Kingdom of God discipleship and challenging us to really own every member ministry and to get stuck in to mission. This is a bit enthusiastic for a Friday morning but hey, what's wrong with that.
love and peace
Dave

[Dave]

Fat Prophet, Just for clarity you said "5. Equality: I do have some thoughts on this but they are in a much broader sense that what you probably mean by equality."

I am intrigued. More please!

Angie, Wow we have got you onto blogs! Thanks for your thoughts.

I love the thought of "amazing people like us" especially when those people are worshipping, loving & serving such an amazing God!

DavidP,

Nice to see you. Enthusiasm is always welcome here. Totally agree on Death and Resurrection. Plus on the fantastic people called to be part of Methodism.

[Will]

Dave,

Thanks for your posts on Methodism. You have named many of the concerns that I have. I guess my question is 'Am I a British Methodist?', so I guess I should write my own post. I think we would disagree most on Local Preachers/Worship Leaders, but on the others, I am with you.

I cannot say that I have encountered the flexibility that Angie praises. I have encountered fear that makes us circle the wagons and tries to keep things the same. Just because the system works well in a few places doesn't mean it works everywhere. I am glad that Angie's experience is different than mine, but I have also heard comments like hers from people who simply don't want to go through the hard work of changing things (I am not implying this is what Angie is doing!).

As far as a new Pentecost, the Death and Resurrection would seem to have to come first. At the moment, I have come to the impression that Methodist Church is trying to cling on to what they have - to scared of death to look for a resurrection and pentecost! I am a pessimist by nature, and I seem to have got more so!

[Fat Prophet]

Dave, I promise I will come back on the equality point but it is something I need to write with, perhaps more than my usual thought. I want to ensure there is no possibility of my thoughts being misunderstood or causing any offence to other readers etc. Partly for this reason I may post these thoughts on my blog rather than yours and partly because it is about time I posted something reasonably substantial. Hopefull it will appear in the next few days.

[Dave]

Will,

"I guess my question is 'Am I a British Methodist?'" Given that you were ordained at the same time as me the answer is surely if you are not then what about the rest of us?

I would definitely like to hear more of your thoughts. I am confident that I am less liturgical in tradition and maybe that affects my views on LP's&WL's.

I did not hear Angie talking so much about flexibility when she was course director either :-) But post stationing I do find a lot of freedom, it may be a personality thing or dependant on station as I know not everyone feels the same freedom.

I agree on death before pentecost but I suspect the whole is not sequential but separate smaller bits. I have found some are so relieved to be told that death is ok that it becomes a release for them.

Fat Prophet,

Looking forward to your thoughts.

[Angie]

Flexibility and maturity in ministry seem to go hand in hand.. what I mean is that the more confident we are about our ministry - the more we are able to seize it, rather than expect it to be doled out to us - or be told how to 'do' it.
The structures of British Methodism leave plenty of scope in circuit ministry for a minister to Pioneer as many Fresh expressions or any other sort of expression that they want - provided that they ensure that the means of grace are still properly provided for existing members to enable them to grow in grace. There is no such thing as sectional ministry in CPD - only circuit ministry. Likewise, you will look in vain for a job description for a Methodist Minister lay or ordained (and God forbid they write one as current job descriptions coming out of MCH hardly qualify as Christian!)
So write your own and take it to your church council if you want to.
Seize the moment - practice your calling - find the people God calls you to love - and minister.
We have nothing to do but to save souls.

[Dave]

Angie,

"The structures of British Methodism leave plenty of scope in circuit ministry for a minister to Pioneer as many Fresh expressions or any other sort of expression that they want - provided that they ensure that the means of grace are still properly provided for existing members to enable them to grow in grace."

This has allowed me to pioneer new stuff, but only due to the appointment I had and the support of the superintendent.

Looking at the appointments for many presbyters (and thinking how mine is changing in September) I can see that many do not have the time or practical freedom to do new things without either getting burnt out or being seen to be neglecting existing members.

As we worked on a mission based circuit vision the key concerns expressed were all about how much time the ministers would spend in pastoral care of existing members - only by meeting those concerns were any changes possible, but it leaves little opportunity to actually make the changes.

Sectional ministry is not in CPD (but it is in the hearts and minds of many presbyters and members), but the notion of Pastoral Charge for individual Churches is. Trying to complete stationing forms without sections is very difficult - you have to list the specific churches the new presbyter will have pastoral charge of and achieving that without them becoming a section is not easy.

[Angie]

David,
the last thing I would want to do is be flippant or 'smart' about this.
Sectional ministry - or rather to give it its proper name - congregational ministry, is sapping the strength and the life out of our ministry and making a mockery of our doctrines and our calling.

In my experience, our people has so forgotten who they are that they need help in understanding the value and the positives in circuit ministry as opposed to sectional ministry. I guess it is human nature whenever we are insecure to try to hold on to what we think is 'ours' but no member of a Methodist church ought to be able to name 'their' minister in the way in which the term is currently used.
(And YES I do think our profile forms etc are a mess)

BUT I believe it IS possible to change hearts and minds - especially if ministers are prepared to gently but firmly ask the congregation the important questions like
Why do you need an ordained person to do this?
What is of GOD in what you are asking me to do?
In what way will this enable me to keep my ordination vows?
How is this a part of my covenant relationship with God?
How will this enable the circuit to grow?

My calling is to ensure that our members can avail themselves of the means of grace - it is not to provide them with what they want, or what they would like, although I would hope and pray that something of what I offer in God's name is both wanted and liked.
I think that love of God's people means loving them enough sometimes to say that this (whatever it is) is not what God and the Church have set me aside to do.

If sufficient lay people do not come forward to SHARE in the pastoral care of our Churches then we must seriously ask whether we should be keeping those Churches open.. or employing a paid pastoral worker (parish nurse?) for the whole circuit.

Like most ministers, I am in the process of finding ways or reminding the congregation that my job is to try to save souls and not run meetings. The changes necessary will only happen when it is obvious to everyone concerned that the reason for their introduction is to enable us all to grow in grace and holiness, not necessarily in numbers - and when the fruit of it is measured in heaven and not on our statistical return.. although God willing - it may be both.

If we dont ask the hard questions now - when will we?
Angie

[Dave]

Angie,

I don't disagree (hugely) with you. However, you make it sound as if it is only members that need to be convinced. It seems to me that Sectional Ministry is seen as the next best thing to congregational ministry as the next best thing to heaven by many presbyters too.

[Angie]

Sadly you are right - after all - Who wouldn't want to be top dog in their own little patch - apart from a Methodist minister that is!

But yes, I have watched one minister undo years of hard work building a circuit mentality..

If the Superintendent isn't circuit minded then it can be almost impossible to end sectional ministry. Unless.. of course.. there are these amazing people called circuit stewards who are able to recall enough of their tradition to help the whole circuit hold its ministers to account..

OK, I'm dreaming again - but there ARE some parts of the British Methodist Church which still remember what it is to be a circuit aren't there?

More importantly - the questions I asked in my earlier post are questions I ask first of myself - especially the one that says - what is of GOD in what I am doing now..

It's surprising how liberating as well as humbling that question can be.

Which brings me back where I started my 'contribution' - accountability - before God and with the people of God.

No easy answers, but with God's grace... who knows?

[Dave]

"No easy answers, but with God's grace... who knows?"

Ahh the wonder of that last bit is what keeps me going.

Obviously given my training I also believe accountability to be critical in this.

However, I also favour working on a more team based approach among the whole people of God.

I go less for saying the ordained minister is different and called to the circuit than for we are all called to work together as a team (I know management speak rather than Methodist tradition). But without a team approach I think we are in trouble.

For me one of the really good prospects that resources will force us into is congregational team ministry. By that I do not mean the presbyters working together but teams providing worship for a Church (a team of circuit local preachers/worship leaders/presbyters/musicians/drama/junior church/...) that to me is much better than having your own minister to provide consistency.

[Angie]

As well you should Dave.. it's called the priesthood of all believers (if you want the Methodist as opposed to the management speak) It's written into CPD in the doctrinal section and is still a core belief for some of us (although it is often quite a surprise to a worship committee when they discover for the first time that they are called to work not just critique the worship of the Church)

I want to share your optimism about resources forcing us back to making it a reality, but so far all that is happening is that invitation committees are trying to hold on to the ministry that they have got for longer.. rather than take the risk and discover their own ministry.

Time will tell.. but God is not finished with us yet..