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    « The law we need | Main | Progress on Open editing of the Official Methodist Consultation Social Media Guidelines version 1 »

    Tuesday, February 09, 2010

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    Davefaulkner

    Dave, these two posts have been brilliant. Thank you. I've managed to type up a quick post of my own for tomorrow morning, because you've connected with a recent conversation I had with a friend.

    Dyfed

    Great post. Though he wants to change us to become Christ-like, exclusion is surely not something in God's heart.
    Dyfed.

    Blue, with a hint of amber

    Again Dave, very interesting discussion, but I do wonder where you are getting your data/info for what happens in other Churches.

    In our Church 3 single women lead small groups. 3 small groups are led by the woman not her husband. 6 are led by married couples. 4 are led by married men not their wives.

    3 of our 6 small group overseers are women, one's husband is not a Church member, and another is a divorcee.

    Our main worship leader is a single man, another is engaged but was leading as single, and one woman started leading when single.

    We sent a church plant with a single male leader.

    Your accusation thats ingle men and women are undervalued does not sit right.

    In my own small group, amongst the women we have a married social worker, engaged doctor, married auditor, single outdoor pursuits instructor, single shop assistant, a victim support worker and an architect both with boyfriends. I don't see how any of those only have a recognised status as "wife"? It seems a bizarre conclusion.

    The question about an "ill husband" is such a strange take on a situation. She would care for him, as would any wife who loved their husband.

    Even the point about husbands who like cooking is just odd. I love cooking. I recently organised a menu, catering team, and cooked curry for over 100 people for a Church social. I often cook at home.

    Even the point about "lovely" wives just comes across as odd. I hope you are a "lovely" husband, but it has nothing to do with your looks. Although your loveliness undoubtedly leads to your wife being physically attracted to you. Does that demean you?

    The conclusion I am coming to is that I just do not believe in male headhsip in the way others believe it or present it. Because the more you rile against what you believe it to be the less it equates to my experience. Either that is because you're judging a charicature, or a reality that does not represent all churches within newfrontiers, or all people within churches, or whatever.

    Dave

    Bwahoa,

    First I do not believe you practice male headship as defined by the likes of Wayne Grudem. The setup of your small groups is not compatible with what he lays out in "Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth".

    The support that Adrian has expressed in the past for Wayne Grudem and Mark Driscoll is very different and Adrian is clearly at a different place to you on this issue.

    My understanding from all I read about NFI is that the leadership are closer to Adrian than they are to you. Certainly the testimony of a number of women who have contacted me directly bears that out.

    However, even in your situation where you are giving quite a lot of freedom from gender roles (and from the married ideal as expressed by Adrian for example) I absolutely do think there is injustice. You stand by your conviction that only men can be elders. I stand by my conviction that as soon as you restrict any role by gender there is injustice and from that I stand by my posts.

    As for the single/married issues I am much encouraged by your testimony. However, when you look at the NFI website on training and programme for conferences please show me the single people (especially the single women).

    Given that you are far from a hard line complementarian I fully understand that you don't get the ill husband scenario. However, in the stricter forms this is a big deal as the husband is the decision maker so the wife is neither suited for, not practised at making decisions such as when to sell the family home, move the husband into residential care etc etc.

    You need to go and look at the complementarian/male headship sites that Adrian links to in order to see where the comments about cooking etc come. Look at the home making courses run by some US seminaries for wives.

    I think you are playing with words when you comment on "lovely", how often have you seen this used of a man in a newspaper? Plus you misunderstand physical attraction. Of course this is right and proper between couples, but it is when it is always the way the wife is introduced that there is a problem. I have found that language is a subtle problem that is often denied as an issue by those on the side of power. You can see that in many different debates. The fact is that it is women who are saying this is a problem and if you accept that they are equal then you ought to respect that.

    Peter Kirk

    Another group you don't mention is widows. Like those with sick husbands they can be forced, perhaps suddenly, to take on roles in the family which they are not prepared for.

    By the way, in the dedication of his book Adrian calls his wife not "lovely" but "wonderful". An improvement, I would think.

    Blue, with a hint of amber

    Very interesting Dave, and helpful.

    Dave

    Peter,

    I gave widows a very cursory mention in the bit about single women, I agree I did not give the issue enough prominence. As someone who has offered pastoral care to widows who suddenly discover they know nothing about their financial situation etc it can be a big problem.

    On his blog Adrian has been using gorgeous recently, not a step forward.

    Bwahoa,

    When you are ready we will always be there with a welcome in the Methodist Church :-)

    Hannah

    Re: single people (and single women in particular), i do think they are victims. There is generally no problem with single men taking on all sorts of roles in churches but I think single women can often be practically invisible. Everyone can't wait for them to get married and have children because as you said, the only 'status' they might have is as somebody's wife (which is what I found when I got married).

    Dave

    Thanks for sharing that Hannah

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