The Todd Bentley revival

I had not planned to write more on Todd Bentley and his revival meetings at Lakeland in the US, but the meetings in Dudley are having an impact here in Raunds.

Of the bloggers I read most, Peter Kirk is still the most positive towards Todd Bentley and indeed I found his post Todd Bentley lifts Jesus high quite reassuring. So in the spirit of Henry Neufeld’s post Danger, Will Robinson! I have been doing some more research and thinking about whether I should travel to Dudley as Phil has: see Visit to Dudley (part 5) (well part 5 is the summary and has links to the other 4 parts).

However, my greatest motivation for finding out more is not my own curiosity, but concern for the Churches I minister within. Some people have already been to Dudley and others are planning to go. I have been listening to them and been prayfully reflecting on their (and my) concerns.

Now I don’t think Peter really approves of my doing this (see Who has the right to test interpretations of Scripture? Although I thought I had a better example from Peter but can’t find the post at the moment). On the other hand I believe that the Methodist Church expects me to, otherwise why would my ordination service include:


In all things, give counsel and encouragement
to those who Christ entrusts to your care.
Pray without ceasing.

Let no one suffer hurt through your neglect

After prayerful consideration I amd concerned that saying nothing about Todd Bentley and the Revival Fires meetings in Dudley would risk those in my care suffering from my neglect. I have three reasons for thinking this:

  1. Violence
  2. Prosperity Gospel
  3. Place of Scripture

Let me flesh these out.

Violence

Go and watch these two video clips:

That is one from Todd Bentley in the US and one from Trevor Baker in Dudley, UK. Peter Kirk attempts to justify this in Violence and the Kingdom – and Todd Bentley again. I totally disagree with Peter on this one, particularly the interpretation of Matthew 11:12 which is about violence against the Kingdom of heaven.

The simple test of comparing this to Jesus is clear, the idea of Jesus ever using violence to heal is bizarre. Remember Jesus is the one who would not let violence be used to protect himself from an unjust death. How can violence ever be part of the healing work of the Spirit?

Can you say "Hey I serve the Price of Peace, so be healed by this kick in the face, or groin"? Absolutely not.

Prosperity Gospel.

I have written before that Todd preachers this. See 42: Todd Bentley and prosperity. Peter seemed sure this was not the case in Dudley, Phil was not so impressed Visit to Dudley (part 3). However, the description I heard this weekend from a Dudley meeting last week was a very simple summary of the Prosperity Gospel "Give money generously in order to be financially blessed". It especially worries me as this is such a simple "no brainer" to fix. If you do not believe in the prosperity gospel then simply say so on your websites and in your meetings. It is not as if it is any surprise that people are going to be concerned about this – and if the label does not fit then it is so easy to fix, but at least so far I can see no attempt has been made to do so.

Place of Scripture

Again this is not a new concern. In  42: Todd Bentley and prosperity I wrote:

Note
that it is worth reading the whole of this "teaching" and noting the
place of scripture within it (almost none existent) – another concern
for me.

After their visit to Dudley last week, one person was bubbling over with enthusiasm for what had been taught about revelations beyond Scripture, how the Bible was incomplete and there needed to be more gospels and how tghe supranatural was needed to take us beyond the Word.

I don’t know about you but alarm bells are going off left, right and centre in my brain at that point.

Now, of course what I write here about a meeting I was not at is hearsay and yes of course communication and understanding of a message is not perfect. But if our teaching can leave aChristian believing that they now need something more than the Bible and that they need to be finding extra gospels and experiences that take them beyond scripture then I submit that something is deeply wrong.

Conclusion

I have grave concerns about this "revival" but my primary concern is how to support congregations who are always eager to hear and experience more of God and so will go and receive exciting experiences wrapped in bad teaching.

[Update]

I have now written several posts on Todd Bentley you can find the others at:

43 thoughts on “The Todd Bentley revival

  1. PamBG

    one person was bubbling over with enthusiasm for what had been taught about revelations beyond Scripture, how the Bible was incomplete and there needed to be more gospels and how the supranatural was needed to take us beyond the Word.
    I agree that this is worrying.
    On the one hand, I keep remembering Jesus’ words that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Matt 12, Mark 3, Luke 11) – i.e. that The Enemy does not heal. (But I still don’t feel whether I know if genuine healings are actually occurring.)
    On the other hand – and, in my mind this is a weakness of the charismatic stance – there seems to be a lot of license here for admitting ideas that are counter to the Gospel: prosperity teaching and the use of violence.
    I often feel that those of us who think that Jesus is The Prince of Peace (outside of Christmas) are in the minority in Christianity. Christianity as it is practiced today allows for ‘different opinions’ as to whether or not there can be a just use of violence. In the confusion of this stance, we can’t see that the use of violence isn’t exactly a positive sign.
    It’s hard to avoid thinking that the emphasis of this whole thing is ‘signs and wonders’.

    Reply
  2. Peter Kirk

    Dave, I have no objection to you “finding out more” and “listening to them and been prayfully reflecting on their (and my) concerns”. My objection is to pronouncing definitive public judgments that the ministry of Todd or someone like him is evil, not of God etc, especially when this is not based on “finding out more”, “listening” and “prayfully reflecting” but on prejudice and snap judgments. I did also say that pastors have the right to give private negative opinions to their congregations, “counsel … to those who Christ entrusts to your care”, which might apply to your situation.
    I am glad that you have carefully avoided going too far in this post, and wish others had taken a similar line. I would have taken their criticisms more seriously if they had.
    I accept that we differ over the role of violence. I hope you can consider this a secondary issue, even in Todd’s practice which is only rarely violent in any significant way.
    I agree with you in rejecting the teaching “Give money generously in order to be financially blessed”. The night I was at Dudley Trevor Baker carefully avoided saying this. Perhaps he has not been so careful since then. But I must say I also wonder if your informants are saying what they themselves believe, about this and about extra-biblical revelation, rather than what Trevor actually said. I suspect that at the very least they did not adequately report to you Trevor’s careful nuances.

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  3. fat prophet

    Two out of three of our ministers have been to the Dudley meetings and did not seem to think there was anything untoward at them. I have not been and do not really feel a desperate need to go especially given that the meetings are reckoned to be four or five hours long.
    I have still been tuning in to the God channel on odd nights and have to say I still have reservations about the whole Todd Bentley phenomenon – I worry about the twitching as I can not see that God would want to inflict a twitch on anyone and to be honest I find it difficult to concentrate when the preacher is twitching all the time. I am not comfortable with the language which seems to come from the old Batman cartoons and if violence is taking place I can not believe that God would want us to kick someone to heal them.
    I have never followed the prosperity gospel and for me this is another issue that would put me off the ministries using it.
    It will be interesting to see how all this pans out in the long term and what damage may be done both to those who have been involved and to the spreading of the gospel although of course one hopes that this will not be the case.
    I agree with much of what Pam BG said above and like her would like to see some real evidence of healings rather than unconfirmed testimony.

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  4. Dave Warnock

    Peter,
    On Violence
    “I accept that we differ over the role of violence. I hope you can consider this a secondary issue, even in Todd’s practice which is only rarely violent in any significant way.”
    I accept we differ on the role of violence generally. I understand that not everyone agrees with me on pacifism – although clearly anyone who does not is wrong :-) But I am shocked if we cannot agree that it is not acceptable to boast about kicking people, knocking people over & drop kicking them.
    When it comes to a healing ministry surely we do not have to agree on pacifism or on what is a just war in order to agree that we should not be kicking old Ladies in the face (and especially that we should not be boasting about it).
    To me issues like tattoos, clothing, accent, vocabulary etc are trivial and not a problem – this problem is about physical attacks and boasting about them.
    Even if you argue that Matthew 11:12 supports violence to defend the kingdom or attack it’s attackers (I absolutely do not believe either of these things) then it still does not justify violence to a worshipping lady, a Chinese man coming down the aisle or to your pastor – all of whom give every sign of being part of the Kingdom not fighting against it
    Sorry but the more I reflect on this the worse that clip gets and the more I question how this can be part of the Kingdom of God.

    Reply
  5. Peter Kirk

    Dave, we don’t actually differ much on pacifism in general, although I am not as definitely committed to it as you are.
    But surely you would agree that violence can be used in healing. Doctors do it all the time: they pound people’s chests when their hearts stop, and cut them open with knives, even sometimes remove limbs or organs, not always with prior consent in emergency cases – things which would be criminal offences if done for the wrong reasons.
    So can’t you allow that sometimes God would do violent things which (from his omniscient perspective) are necessary for healing? And if he can do this, surely he can ask his servants to do this for him. This is what Todd at least believes he is doing, at God’s command. I don’t say he is always 100% right to do this. And I too have trouble with him boasting about it – in one old video from maybe before he went through a quite recent wilderness time, not at Lakeland. But I do think you are being too strong in saying that this can never be right.

    Reply
  6. Dave Warnock

    Peter,
    a) I do not accept the premise that what Todd talks about doing can be likened to a doctor responding to heart failure.
    b) I assume we agree that Doctors are very accountable for the way they treat us. Have you ever heard of a Doctor (Christian or not) boasting about being violent to a patient and not being struck off?
    c) If this is the way God works and if Jesus is God then where does Jesus do this?
    d) If this is an old/previous Todd then where is the repudiation by the new Todd?
    Oh and by the way if someone kicks me in the face and then stands over me and says “are you healed” I am going to say yes in case they kick me again.

    Reply
  7. EdmundWest

    Dave
    I have thought and prayed about the Bentley/Lakeland phenomenon for many weeks now, reading dozens of articles and watching scores of clips. The problems you identify (1-3) are very similar to my own major concerns. Also I think points 1 and 2 feed into number 3 anyway.
    In my opinion Bentley’s ministry should be shunned primarily because it doesn’t line up with scripture, and indeed contradicts scripture at times. Thus on his web site
    http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=106&pid=8
    you have statement of faith number 1:
    “We believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error, unified in their redemptive purpose, yielding a complete revelation of God’s will for the salvation of mankind. We hold the Bible to be trustworthy, the only supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. Scripture is our source of revelation of God, the knowledge of salvation, the origin of all things and of the hereafter-it is the final Court of Appeal on all points of doctrine, life and godliness. (2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Hebrews 4:12)”
    All sounds good doesn’t it?
    But then scroll down to number 12:
    “We recognize that God is continually restoring truth and light to His Church. Therefore, we place no limit on further revelation; however, each must be substantiated according to the Scriptures.”
    See? Bentley contradicts himself, since how can Scripture be the “complete” revelation when he says later that “we place no limit on further revelation”?
    So this gives licence to all forms of dangerous nonsense about imartations, portals, seers, angels,prosperity doctrines, Word of Faith, Latter Rain lunacy etc.etc.
    Oh of course you will have people using all sorts of weasel words about “what Bentley really meant”. But it’s about time Christians, especially senior Christians who normally have so much to say on various things, addied up and started talking about The Emperor’s New Clothes (or maybe The Elephant in The Room would be more apt for Bentley). To be honest the Gamaliel approach sounds like a head in the sand attitude, hoping it will all go away soon. But I don’t think that this Lakeland business and its globbal effects are going to go away any time soon.
    There are a number of good reasons to shun Bentley’s ministry, and the above is only one of them, but is perhaps the most important.

    Reply
  8. Peter Kirk

    Dave, is the reason why you “do not accept the premise that what Todd talks about doing can be likened to a doctor responding to heart failure” that you do not accept that Todd is truly hearing from God? If a nurse can hit a patient’s chest on a doctor’s orders, cannot Todd use violent healing methods on God’s orders? That is certainly what he claims to be doing.
    I am sure that if a doctor talked about how he had saved a patient’s life by emergency surgery, even of the kind which might be considered violent, and as long as there was no breach of confidentiality, that would be entirely acceptable, there would be no question of striking off!
    But I do have some problems about how Todd presented his material in that video clip. It does sound a bit too much like boasting. But this video is some years old, and Todd has grown in wisdom since then.
    Jesus turned over the money changers’ tables and used a whip on the animals. Not quite the same as what Todd is doing, but not quite the traditional “gentle Jesus, meek and mild” image into which you seem to expect Todd to fit.
    Edmund, perhaps point 12 would have been better worded as “we place no limit on further revelation, EXCEPT THAT each must be substantiated according to the Scriptures.” But surely that is what is meant.

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  9. Dave Warnock

    Peter,
    My suspicion is that Todd using violence is like a Nurse hearing from a Doctor “restart the heart”, the Doctor means use the electic paddle things but the Nurse uses a big hammer. The heart restarts but not in the way the Doctor intended and with side effects.
    You know that I do not believe in a meek and mild Jesus. He was a trouble making radical who was nearly killed even early on for his teaching. But one factor of his radical life was non violence. I think the temple incident is vastly over stated by those trying to avoid the message of non violence from Jesus.
    I repeat I have no problem with Todd being unconventional, being radical, being loud, tattooed, wearing biker clothes, … my problem is about
    a) being violent,
    b) boasting of violence and
    c) teaching that is unscriptural (such as prosperity gospel and some of his angelic stuff).

    Reply
  10. Neil Adams

    Hi dave I visited Dudley as 1 it is my home town! & 2 Im on sabbatical looking at church stuff. I have posted about my experience there. to be honest I wouldn’t touch it with a bargepole.
    God bless
    Neil

    Reply
  11. John Douglas

    Quite recently I have watched the “ministry” of Todd Bentley and gatherings of HIS followers and these are my conclusions [a]the fundamental teaching in Corinthians that Christian meetings should be conducted
    in an orderly fashion is clearly being flouted indeed a lot of what purports to be the Holy Spirits’ moving is nothing more than the use of mesmerism and mind control techniques!! [b]the Scriptural teaching that “If I be lifted up “[..Christ that is!!] all men will be drawn unto me” is being subjugated in the cult of personality [c]the linking of Todd Bentleys so called ministry to dubious and indeed spurious “healers/evangelists such as William Branham and John Lake shoud have ” alarm bells” ringing for any believer with spiritual discernment.May all truly Spirit led fellowships be on the guard in case they are infiltrated by this movement!!!

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  12. Rosalyn

    I recently visited Dudley for a couple of nights after hearing the hype. I went with some cynicism and trying to have an open mind. On one of those nights two of Todd’s colleagues were involved.
    Firstly, I saw no actual violence. I’ve heard that one of the notorious You Tube clips is a fake. One of Todd’s colleagues did speak of ‘a love pat’ with his foot. I personally cannot see using a foot as a good thing even if gently. And these were very young men who are clearly hero-struck in some ways about Todd. Trevor struck me as a gentle and humble man.
    Secondly, the offertory teaching on one of those nights was definitely prosperity teaching. When Trevor spoke it was not.
    Thirdly, I saw some healings. I have no reason to believe that any were fake and of course there were some who were not healed.
    Fourthly, despite the human failings of the individuals concerned, God was there! He has chosen to use some faulty channels to give blessing and healing. As He has done throughout history. Does that mean we should be careful when we listen to the teaching? Yes. Does that mean we dismiss what is happening? No.
    God gave me a powerful encounter with Him at Dudley. There was a tangible sense of His presence in the worship that I have heard others say could be cut with a knife. I have been to meetings where there has been something hyped up and this was real and I discerned from God.
    Ultimately lets judge it on the fruit.
    My advice to anyone would be to go and experience it for yourself. Or watch online – though not the clips, watch a meeting.

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  13. Pat Foss

    Hello boys, how are you?
    –I have a couple things to say,- #1 Re Dudley and what was said re the Word. I believe what was meant was that the Word has been taught and preached in the catholic and protestant institutions without power (the accompanying demonstrations that Jesus told his disciples to do, and to teach everyone following them to do , for a long long long time, in the country generally without the signs following that prove that it is the Word of God, ie. what Jesus taught his disciples to copy him in, and also to teach to everyone following them to do, ie. heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, etc…. So I think they are saying that Powerless-Word is not right and they were speaking of bringing an end to that, not an end to the Word of God.
    Preaching with the Power demonstrations is available to all preachers who are willing to be dependant on the Holy Spirit and to be filled by Him. Also, it requires faith, which is something that most of the church believes that they have, but which most of the church does not understand that they don’t have, – not the miracle producing kind of faith, nor do they teach others about it, and how to use it.—(yes we have ‘faith’ in that we believe in God, but miracle working faith is different than this, as Jesus taught.)
    As to the ‘prosperity gospel’-there is none, there is only THE gospel, which includes promises of/ and provisions, (ie. and GOD made Abraham very very wealthy- this wealth was a blessing, and part of Abraham’s blessing,which has been given to every believer through Jesus Christ” ie “the blessing of Abraham coming down on the gentiles, through JEsus Christ” bible quote., and this same theme runs throughout the whole bible, old and new testament, ie. the blessing of Abraham is real and it is true, and each believer in Jesus inherits this(and not just this alone, but Jesus bought and paid for far more than this for the believer in Jesus, we are co-heirs with JEsus to everything from out Father, everything He gave to Jesus has been given to us by Jesus, joint heirs, seated with Him in heavenly place, – think about where He is seated currently, and know that this verse means that you are sitting with him there) and needs to know how to have faith or release faith in order to have this start occurring in their life ie what i wrote above about the diff. between faith as in believing in God, and the miracle working kind of faith, which are two diff. things. two different kinds of faith or FAITH,–
    Anyway, the quote that you posted about someone saying in the christian meeting, “give and you will receive” -Jesus quote from the Holy Scriptures, is right out of the bible, and all the more so to those who give into furthering the Kingdom of God, Paul taught this to his followers who helped him, that they would “INDEED receive a financial return on what they were giving to him, and that it would abound to them.” There are principles in the bible that show that what is sown will be reaped, and this goes for financial as well, but all of this must be done in faith, and just the faith that believes that God exists is not enough, ie. miracle working faith is diff. than this. These criticisms of yours are understandable as you need to be cautious and protect the flock of God, however what they really need protection from is the Word of God preached not mixed with miracle working faith, which has been what they have received for too many centuries, and that would be cold institutionalized ‘christianity?’ that does not heal sickness, provide financial relief,cast out devils and is powerless to change anything. this is just preaching the bible like it is a historical text about historical events, which is opposed to preaching the Word of God full, FULL of revelation, now this is not revelation that would be new cannon, it is revelation of the deeper things of the Word of God, it is itself, GOD, the WORD is GOD, ‘i the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was GOD.’
    This makes the written bible supernatural, it is God HIMSELF in black and white and red type on paper. So it has depths that the church has never plumbed, it is chocked full of goodness, and this is what is meant by revelation, not any NEW canon, but understanding the canon we have, and it you will, using our ‘canon’ to ‘stoke up’, aim and fire it at the spiritual opposition like Jesus did, and get the same results that He did. It is possible for us NOW and is GOd’s will for the church always, He never closed this off from the church at any time, but the spiritual opposition did close it off and that is why history records that we went through a period called the Dark Ages, and why wouldnt it be because the stole the Word of God, and hid it in an ancient language, and did not allow people to even read it. So the LIGHT was almost put out, but not so today, today the ENEMY uses a diff. tactic, we have the Word, but preachers have been expounding it in disobedience to JEsus’s commands, ie. without Faith and without the demonstration of the power that should always be accompanying it.

    Reply
  14. Dave Warnock

    Pat,
    If what you write is true then how come Jesus was not rich. The “prosperity Gospel” did not seem to work very well for him (or any of the prophets, or apostles.
    A little reflection on what Jesus meant by give and you will receive and you might realise that the receiving is not about wealth (after all how easy does Jesus say it is for a rich person to enter the kingdom?).
    It is interesting that you see the written word as God himself. What would that mean for Jesus and the earliest church who did not have the Bible that we have.
    Wouldn’t it be good if you could be so enthusiastic about all the teaching of Jesus (try Matthew 5).

    Reply
  15. Blue, with a hint of amber

    Oh boy!
    THE gospel also contains promises and provisions of wealth if we have enough faith to release it?
    Go to a starving village in Ethiopia and tell the local pastor that.
    I know Mark Driscoll is not everyone’s cup of tea but his challenges to prosperity teaching is excellent.
    Basically he asks how any teaching could say “If only you have more faith then you won’t be like Jesus”
    I see the pain and poverty in the lives of Jesus and the apostles and the idea that “health and wealth” is some sort of “right” for us within the gospel just does not square up.
    “needs to know how to have faith or release faith in order to have this start occurring in their life”
    Just send $50 and reach your hand out to touch the screen…

    Reply
  16. PamBG

    Basically he asks how any teaching could say “If only you have more faith then you won’t be like Jesus”
    That’s an excellent sound bite. Darn it. ;-)

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  17. Dave Warnock

    Bwahoa,
    On prosperity Mark Driscoll is right on the money (excuse the terrible pun). I support him totally on that.
    Your point about the pastor in Ethiopia is also spot on.
    I confess that I do dream of Mark getting on board with what Jesus taught about violence with similar enthusiasm – what a day of rejoicing that would be.
    Oh yes and on women too, but I think we have mentioned that before :-)

    Reply
  18. Pat

    Dear All, from Pat. cont’d.
    Well I did not yet look up driscoll on Jesus and money, however, contrary to pop. understanding, Jesus had money, he had a treasurer in his ministry, he constantly had enough for his group of 12 men (think about this, these 12 men were likely married, these men were not still working while they trav. around with Jesus,for 3 years, that meant that Jesus would have had to support them, fed and provided for 12 men and their families for 3 years, Jesus would have had to have enough for them all, plus money was so constantly given by them to the poor that it was commonplace, – ie. Jesus talking to Judas to do quickly what he had to do, this meant to the others that Judas was again giving funds to the poor or whoever, ——–(sorry about the spelling, I have not found a sp. check on this board as yet),
    Jesus had a house, he showed it to some of the disciples when they asked where he lodged, – just think about this, re money,
    —-What would have happened when multitudes were healed by someone who claimed to be from God, his son, as JEsus did, or claimed messiahship, dont you think those esp. those healed would have forced all their entire wealth on Jesus, and his men? just even for the healing itself, let alone that JEsus was HOly, sent from God, his son, and also the messiah? I am quite sure that people plastered them with money. Tae as an example of this, the trip into Jerusalem on the donkey, all the people laying their robes on the ground, and palms on the ground, worshipiing and praisining him, this is the way the crowds got about him and i am quite sure they showered them with gold, other money, raiment, etc. ie. jesus telling the boys when he sent them out, not to even take a purse of an extra piece of clothing that all would be provided, etc.
    …Dont automatically turn this info. off because i think you have been looking at the bible for a long long time, thru centuries of catholic church-isms, ie. poverty = holiness, but this is not inkeeping with jewish tradition, where blessing from God was equivalent with prosperity, and the curse was = poverty. bible quote from deut. look up curse and blessing and see for yourself, every time the jews were pleasing God and walking right, they were blessed materially, when they werent- ouch! losses and losses….
    Jesus had a robe that was very expensive, the soldiers used it for money when they played a game at his cross, to see who would win it, at birth, jesus received the wealth of foreign kings, including gold and very costly ointments, some of which would equal several years wages, etc. and it is not written how much of each item he received. poverty is a recent idea, comparitively, which is not spoken of in any good light in the bible, and the understanding of what jesus was saying about the rich man entering into the kingdom and how hard it was for him, needs to be fully explored before you make it into something that supports lack of riches, because the whole bible disagrees with riches=bad and poverty=better, and “the sum of thy words is truth” meaning that the whole bible must be taken into account, not just one verse, and one verse you may be misunderstanding. ie if Judas was a theif who had been stealing out of their treasury, there must have been something in there to steal,- so they had money.
    I firmly believe that there is a mountain of accurately understood and properly discerned scripture to support that God’s blessing comes with financial blessing, and that God’s blessing is given to all who enter in through JEsus to the Tree into which we are grafted in.
    There are diff. kinds of faith. One kind of faith will move a mountain, “He who comes to God must believe that God is, (it doesnt stop here) and that HE is a rewarder of them who diligently seek HIM.
    ===”If you, being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask HIm, = but let him who asks not doubt, for one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, dont let that man think he will receive anything from God,..etc.
    These are quotes from the Lord, (who is the bible, did you know, “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God,….and the WORD became flesh and dwelt amoung us.”
    God is not mean, but He requires faith, FAITH, i will use caps to desribe the kind of FAITH GOD likes. He prefers a kind, and it is this kind, that JEsus talked about,
    “If you ask anything in my name, BELIEVE you have received, at the time that you ask, and You will have it”
    This believe is not really our believe word today, itis a faith word, and faith is the substance of things hoped for, faith is actually a substance, and it is also evidence, because when someone has the kind of faith God requires that they believe when they ask that God at that time gives it to them, no matter if it is visible at that time or not, this is faith , and if the do NOT doubt, JEsus said they will have what they asked. THis i have proven over and over again in my life.
    You are wrong about God not wanting to provide money for his people, you cannot take as evidence people who are without, you do not even know if they know how to release faith or even what it is, i am telling you mainstream chrsitianity does not know what it is, or they would be having supernatural results, i have proven it in my life, many many times, i am learning faith, i am seeing results, and God i no respecter of person, if He is doing it for me, then He wants to do same for all believers today. but all believers today are not in faith for things they are asking, adnt there are other qualifiers, ie. faith can only work by love, bible quote, so even if someone has faith, the real fiath, FAITH, it only owrks if that person is walking in love, and staying out of sin, etc. and tehre are other qualifiers. etc.
    There is much much in the bible to support what i am saying, it is 1:00 am almost and i cannot write it all for you here and now, – I must say that the bible says something diff. than what mainline denom. christianity ie. lutheran, anglican, catholic, united, methodist, etc.e tc. all the little branches off these groups, etc. believe, the bible is specific from cover to cover, the topics of God approving of finances for his spiritual family, us, and giving it to them, etc. is a theme that is all through the bible and cannot be denied. Just like the catholics hid the bible in latin from people, and did not allow anyone to read it, other denom. hid other things inthe bible, by trying to make it fit with ie. their bad experiences, or to explain bad experiences, etc. the o.t. is given for our example, and it never indicates anything good about poverty, just the opposite, or about lack, lack is a curse in the o.t. and so should it be in the new. t. not until catholicism, did poverty ever have anything to do with true believers, new test. scripture is full of people receiving for ie. blessing for giving into pauls ministry, God returned it to them, but a multiplication, an overflow of what they gave, if you look for these scriptures you wll find them, but i am quite sure you NEVER heard them preached on in your denom. yet they whole bible is FULL of them, bye bye for now, dont get mad, dont get even,
    Love me ,
    your sister, Pat.

    Reply
  19. Pat

    Am I being tossed as spam? as I dont see the answers I posted to your replies?
    Anyway, as to Mathew 5 there is nothing in there that is opposed to what I have said to you, – and I can tell you are taking a mocking tone regarding what I am saying, if you allow yourself to see this part of the teaching of the bible as “posperity teaching” preposterous type teaching, and do not even have an open mind enought to even explore what I am saying, then it is no use of me mentioning anything, you must have enough of an open mind to explore the possibility that you have missed some things the bible says, or have never been taught them, so therefore you think they are not there, but! You are wrong! They are there, all through the bible, promises of provision and promises of material blessing, fact, not fiction, real, not imagined, and no to be mocked or laughed at since it is the WORD of GOD.
    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” God and HIs Word are one, His WOrd is God, too. It is jesus, as is later explained how the Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us. I find it difficult to be mocked and put down by my own brothers, who should at least hear me and at least explore biblically what I am saying, for if we are brothers, we are in HIs LOVE together.

    Reply
  20. Pat

    I think I am being mocked, instead of taken seriously and instead of anyone being open minded enough to even check out in scripture what I am saying.
    What I have spoken is the truth, ie faith, it is not needing ‘enough’ faith to do miraculous works, it is needing a certain kind of faith which is what I am talking about, there IS a FAITH that will cause miraculous results, and other types fall short of this, faith needs to be understood for what it is, and like i said, most christian churches do not teach about it nor understand it, for if they did they would be getting the results Jesus received, etc. when Jesus released faith against diff. odds, etc. and as for Jesus being ‘against’ riches, he showed the opposite by loading peter’s boat with fish, sim. to us in our businesses making enough for 10 years in a day in our businesses, this is what Jesus did for Peter in exchange for Peter giving JEsus his boat to preach from.
    I thnk Peter got a years wages from one days fishing expedition, like jacob in o.t.-this was financial abundance and Jesus produced it from a miracle, theset type of things He wants us to do for others today, to help them financially, not to be in poverty ourselves, but to “have plenty for ourselves and much left over to always have all sufficiency, to be able to give to every charitable work and donation” This is the will of God for all his followers, including those in ethiopia, where it will depend solely on the miraculous alone for provision, that is where they will need to know the miracle kind of faith and how to use it, or “they will receive nothing from God” are people somewhere receiving nothing from God? then they are not using what God taught us from the scriptures, they are outside of his authoriity and have placed themselves there because of refusing to read, understand and obey what he has taught, and some even mock, like you yourselves have done to me here, but be careful, ie. mocking, for if I speak on my own and you mock me, that is one thing, but is I speak His Truth and you mock, …that is another thing entirely, because then you mock THE HOlY ONE. (who can deliver you out of HIS hand?)

    Reply
  21. Blue, with a hint of amber

    Pat – I am not trying to mock you. I am asking you a genuine question. Can you help me understand this better.
    This is the will of God for all his followers, including those in ethiopia, where it will depend solely on the miraculous alone for provision, that is where they will need to know the miracle kind of faith and how to use it, or “they will receive nothing from God” are people somewhere receiving nothing from God? then they are not using what God taught us from the scriptures, they are outside of his authoriity and have placed themselves there because of refusing to read, understand and obey what he has taught
    So the Ethiopian pastor in a famine region in a village of starving people is guilty of not using what God teaches us from the scriptures, is outside of God’s authority, and is refusing to read, understand and obey what God has taught?

    Reply
  22. Pat

    from Pat,
    regarding seeming eccentricites of those moving in the Holy Spirit,
    –I believe there are those operating by a spirit not the Holy Spirit, etc. and discernment is necessary, but ruling out eccentricities as not the H.SP. is not ok in itself, ie. – the-what we would call strange-ness of our forefathers, and men of faith gone by, ie. John the Baptist, who was clothed in a loincloth I believe, lived in the hills and the desert alone, – (strange to our thinking) he ate bugs, insects, and also bee honey, or what may be interpreted as tree sap, wild honey could have been tree sap, this is unusual, – modern day, Oral Roberts in the healing tents, sometimes punched people in the stomach, to deliver a blow to the spirit he had just commanded out of the body ofthe person he was addressing, this is on historical records and can be even seen on video, i think, if you look up on the net, etc. Oral Roberts had miraculous healings, babies born deformed and who were healed in front of everyone’s eyes as they watched their transformation, ie club feet, deformed faces, etc. and people saw with their own eyes the transformation from before prayer to after, people got up off stretchers, etc. in those tents in those days, etc.
    Other eccentricities of our forefathers, ie. Moses the snake handler, snakes are rep. not good things in the bible, (except when it was a shadow of Jesus himself!) Moses had on his resume the fact that he could throw down his staff, and it became a snake, and vice versa, he could pick it up and it became a stick,- would any pulpit in any self respecting denomination of christianity have this man today? No, no way, no one would hire this guy,
    neither would they hire the prophet whom God told to take off his dirty underwear, bury it under a rock, wait for it to rot and then take it out again and carry it around as a sermon illustration, but
    Because we have the same God today, as they did, then, many today are being asked by God to do unconventional things that are not – not of God, but are not what is the expected or ‘norm’ as you would, this in no way proves a lack of connection to the LORD,
    ie. what pulpit today would have a man who reported strange flying circular things full of eyes, or animal heads on men’s bodies, ie the eagle, lion, man and ox on the winged creatures,
    These men although completely “of ” God would not be allowed in any pulpit in our world today,
    This is not to condone what is false, as what is false exists,
    but it is to ask all to enlarge their understanding of WHO our GOD is, and what He sometimes asks, and sometimes does.
    “I am the LORD, I change not!”
    We have our Father today, as unconventional as ever, sometimes offending our minds to gain access to our hearts.
    Which methodist preacher has the Lord asked recently to lie naked on one of his sides, in public for several years, to receive publicity this way, and then to give the message that God gave him which accompanied the ‘strange’ act?
    But yet, if our Father is the LORD and HE changes not, it could happen, yet
    wouldn’t any preacher refuse to co operate with God, in FEAR of their brothers, and
    rightly so,
    because their brothers would be like the brothers of David, David who knew his covenant with HIs God,who knew HIs God, personally, who had experience of God’s personal intervention in his life, David spoke up and said what God would do for them, and acted on it, and God delivered the whole nation because of him, and in times past, we had men in the former century who sought God for their whole countries and who were answered by God with FIRE from heaven, that changed the whole nation, because of just one man.
    This is no comment on the man Bentley, but I am addressing things about OUR GOD, our FAther, who HE is and who many churches have forgotten about who HE is or read the scriptures but miss all the best things, and the unusual things,
    and that is ok, for now, but He is calling us, all of us, to change and to walk with HIM< to venture out into HIS supernatural, like our forefathers did, ie MOSES and DAvid, david was just a kid when he took on enemy #1 of the nation, and HE won, because God responded to David’s faith, and David did not have just blind faith, He knew his covenant with HIs God, it was not favourites God was playing, God did not pick David out as favourite, but David sought God, was His friend, and obeyed him and knew from the Jewish teachings what he had throught hte covenant and he walked int he covenant, where others in his nation, including the king, did not. Saul could have had the victory against the giant, but he did not walk in the covenant, maybe paid no attention to it , just like most of the organized religion church today, they have left the POWER of God OUT of their churches entirely, they do NOT know their covenant that they have with their God, and have NO experience in it, and instead mock those who have heard, have believed it and are endeavouring to walk in it, all because of their lack of hearing and lack of believing, ie Bentley, I think, although I have seen and heard little of him, I presume, that is a better word, that he may be someone who is endeavouring to walk in the things of God, and one whole vein of major criticism that is against him is from the ‘church’ who do not believe the works of the apostles and works of acts are for today, yet those same works, supernatural things, ie works of David, or of Moses, are for today, because our God is the same yesterday today and forever, HE is supernatural, HE is full of power and ability to deliver and help out of any situation, yet most of the ‘church’ do not KNOW their GOD, they have watered HIM down to stain glass windows and 30 minute talks once a week, about historical events, and far far into the future events, but as to the here and now, we don’t know where HE is, – however, there is a covenant to walk in, there is a calling to every saint, every believer, a calling to do what JEsus did, walk how JEsus walked, and it is possible, because He claled us to it, and it is not for the favourites, it is not only if you have a gift, it is for the BODY of Jesus on the earth, ‘THOSE THAT KNOW THEIR GOD, (KNOW THEIR COVENANT AND WHAT GOD WILL DO, KNOW WHAT FAITH IS AND HOW TO USE IT, KNOW GODS WAYS AND HOW TO OPERATE IN THEM) THOSE THAT KNOW THEIR GOD WILL BE STRONG AND DO EXPLOITS” FORGET ABOUT JUDGING IS ONE MAN OF OR NOT OF GOD, GET TO KNOW YHVH INSTEAD OF INVESTIGATING ANYONE ON THE EARTH, FEAR NOT, SEEK HIM, BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, FIND OUT WHAT YOUR COVENANT RIGHTS ARE, SEEK THOSE ALREADY WALKING IN THE WAYS OF GOD THE SUPERNATURAL THINGS, AND LEARN FROM THEM, HUMBLE YOURSELF TO THE WORD OF GOD, NOT TRADITIONS OF YOUR DENOMINATION, IF THE WORD SAYS ONE THING AND THE DENOM. SAYS ANOTHER THING, THE DENOM. IS W R O N G , PLAIN AND SIMPLE. GO WITH GOD.

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  23. Pat

    from Pat,
    Revelations OF Scripture, not beyond scripture,
    ie. try this spiritual restaurant for a time, food for your spirit coming from the Holy Scriptures, filled and full of the Holy Scriptues,
    http://www.forerunnertv.com/blog-eagles,
    see Christopher Baron UK and Ms. Jennifer Rosenburg, U.S. their writings and others on the blog, eat here for awhile, read scripture revealed from old and new, revelation unfolding in edible texts, food for the hungry spirit.
    Chris Baron may be someone to contact and connect with in the UK, who may be a good person to talk to re discerning moves of God, etc. I am not saying Dudley is a move of God, and everywhere God is moving on men, you will have some carnal fallen human nature in the mix – until we all come to the full stature of Jesus. (unfortunately, and this stinky stuff needs to be overlooked and not judged as not from God)the carnal may make the work of God in the midst look like its not God, but it still may be God.
    Love to you, especially to Warnock, my brother,
    (…’just like they persecuted the prophets of old….’ they also persecuted JEsus and said all manner of evil about him…, so people saying evil about someone does not make it true, and may also be a sign that someone is from the LORD, however, proper discernment needs to be applied, but if it cannot be applied, it is better to not say anything than to speak against if God is the source of a move.) love you Warnock, from your sister in Jesus, Pat.

    Reply
  24. Pat

    dear Mr. Warnock:
    I would like to introduce you to Chris Baron, Leigh on Sea, Essex, UK,
    THE REVIVAL OF THE WORD
    June 25, 2008
    by Christopher Baron – Leigh on Sea, Essex, UK
    The Revival of the Word
    Recently the Lord gave this word “YESHIVAH” To my amazement when I looked it up I found out that a Yeshivah is a Rabbinical school for Torah study. The word Yeshivah means “sitting” like a student or disciple at the masters feet. I thought to myself “wow this is amazing Yeshua has his own spiritual Yeshivah” of course, why not he …
    …at the web address I gave you, hope his location is near enough to you that maybe you could make contact, i believe he would be very good for you to know, and would assist in not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, re discerning between things of and things not from God.

    Reply
  25. Dave Warnock

    Pat,
    2 of your comments did get caught by the automatic spam filter. I am not surprised as they are so full of shouting and are incoherent. I have tried reading them several times and still have very little idea about what you are trying to say in your long rambles.
    Meanwhile you have failed to respond the basic challenge to the prosperity gospel that Blue with a hint of amber has asked. Just in case you can’t find the question hidden among your essays here it is again:
    “So the Ethiopian pastor in a famine region in a village of starving people is guilty of not using what God teaches us from the scriptures, is outside of God’s authority, and is refusing to read, understand and obey what God has taught?”
    Oh yes and while Bwahoa is not mocking you I may well be doing so.

    Reply
  26. Pat

    Well, -incoherent, ? I see I have been long winded,-
    it isn’ always easy to tell from print the ‘tone’ of what is typed, I wasn’t yelling with the caps, I was just trying to mark out things,…
    ….essays, yes, i see that point….
    Idon’t know if I should answer or not, because I have taken up a lot of print space, – I would like to answer, it seemed like the responses were tongue in cheek, already minds made up type of responses, not open to discussion, but i could be wrong,… i will respond.. (i will sep. the posts so not to be as long..)

    Reply
  27. Pat

    Reply to blue with amber;
    Re: Ethopian pastor in a starving village.
    I presume this is a hypothetical situation, and not much other info. is given re what is that pastor doing re the situation, etc.
    So, 1) what i meant by someone placing themselves outside of God’s authority is this, from the scripture that says,bible quote, “let him ask God in faith, nothing wavering, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, tossed to and fro, let not that man think he will receive anything from the Lord”
    —from my understanding of what God requires of us in the scripture in and around faith, is this,
    anyone not using Real faith has no ‘leg to stand on’ if you will for receiving anything at all from God.
    From what is revealed in scripture God seems to have decided to use Real faith as His vehicle for getting everything to his people. It is His choice, His rule and it stands.
    Of course there is the mercy of the Lord, and divine Godsends, where no one’s faith is involved, and people are given things that no one used Real faith for, but this is not the usual way of God, and these incidents are miracles that were divinely sent, without using God’s usual methods on the earth.
    God’s usual methods are clearly laid out in scripture, and they are through the use of faith and only that, faith is a kind of currency almost of the Kingdom of God, like we would use money, and it is also a law, in that if you activate it with all of the right ‘ingredients’ and obedience to all the other rules of God, you will get the same results every time.
    REal faith is actually a law, like gravity.
    Now if the Ethopian pastor does not know about this, never been taught, never found it by revelation out of the scritpure himself, he will not know how to use faith, and he will probably call all the nasty starving things and the lack, ‘the will of God’ or something horrible like that. When God’s will is the opposite of that ugly mess, and this is also marked out all through the bible.
    Now I am writing conversatonal-type, and I do not believe what I have written here is incoherent in any way.
    I am making sense, even though you may not yet be able to see what I am saying, nor even agree.

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  28. Pat

    cont’d to blue with amber,
    (what is the choice of your name handle a reference to ?)
    Now, this pastor may not have refused to see what is being said about faith in the scriptures, he could just not see it or understand it, or he may have actually refused many times, ie. maybe many tried to communicate how to use faith in the biblical way (many teachers, pastors, books he came across, evangelists, tv preachers and teachers, and he laughed and mocked at it, and thought it was a joke, something incoherent people made up etc.
    So, he may not have known, or he may have refused to look and see, maybe the Hly Spirit tried to show him but perhaps he squelched the Hly Spirit, not being sure if it was God or not, trying to teach him things, etc.
    These put someone outside of God’s authority, ie GOd will not violate someone’s will and choices, if the pastor tells God ‘no’, then ‘no’ it is. God respects our wills.
    But this puts God in the position of his own pastor in that village relying soley on ongoing acts of mercy and kindness from the Lord, and, while the Lord is kind,and merciful,
    HIs system that is explained in scripture is not designed by Him to run this way. His system from scripture runs on faith, the o.t. and the new testament contain thousands of references to this, from Abraham to Jesus, and the apostles etc. all of them indicate
    that whenever God wanted to do something on the earth, He always looked for a man(or woman).(ie. Mary or Deborah)of faith.
    by faith, I mean Real faith. This is the kind of faith, when released, that causes supernatural things to occur, ie.when David the 17 yr old released faith in the covenant promises of God, he got supernatural results, killing the giant, and delivering his whole nation.
    Every man present who daily heard the threats from the giant probably knew about their covenant with God, but perhpas few belivieved in it. Maybe less than a few every acted on it, or met the requirements required to walk in it and have confidence in it, but David knew it, walked in it, and had many experiences supernatural, up to that point, where he saw the results of his faith in Gods promises to him,
    ie. “let not that man who doubts think he will receive anything from the Lord.”
    One of the things that will stop faith from producing results is doubt.
    doubt will stop faith dead.
    Why the bible says “let not that man think he will receive anything from the Lord” is not because God is so mean that He refuses to give someone with doubt problems anything, God is not mean, but faith cannot work with doubt present. IT stops it cold.
    So God is saying, if you doubt, you can be sure that you will not receive anything you ask for, why, because I am mean? no, because faith cannot work with doubt.
    Real faith is a Real thing, diff. from what you think it is.
    I know what you think because I used to think I knew what faith was, what teh bible word meant, but I didn’t. I was wrong.
    If that pastor does not know how to operate in faith with God, he may get some souls saved and on their way to heaven, but he will not be able to help the peoples immediate physical plight.

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  29. Pat

    To blue with amber,
    What is real faith? It is not that easy to define, but it is possible to define it.
    It is not just a belief in God, ie. believing He exists. Faith is defined in the bible as for ie.
    in Abraham’s situation,
    when Abraham was ‘fully persuaded’ that what God had promised, there was no doubt that He would do.
    This is one example that involves the true meaning of faith.
    God took Abraham from just looking at the natural world only, to complete 100 % faith, to where he was willing to actually kill the promise of God dead, (his son) knowing that God’s promises were so sure that nothing would prevent that boy from fulfilling all that God told him that he would, even putting the boy to death, would not prevent it.
    Abraham was so sure of God by that time, after going through God’s teaching school on faith, that he told the men at the foot of the mountain that they, (both of them) would return, even though Abe knew he was going up the mountain to kill his own son.
    That is being fully persuaded, without a mixture of doubt, that what God said is true and that HE will do exactly what He says He will.
    This sureness can be applied to God’s many promises to you and me in the printed scripture, a written record of what God told us He will do for us, in diff. situations. etc.

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  30. Pat

    to Blue with Amber;
    Abraham did not have scriptures to learn from so God taught him himself.
    God used the changing of ABe’s name as a way for Abraham to increase in faith, and to even announce in faith himself, everytime he told someone his name, to anounce the promise of GOD.
    God says “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the WOrd of GOd” in Abe’s case after God changed his name, he heard God’s good Word to him, again and again and again, every time Sarah called him, everyting he introduced himself to someone, he “heard God’s word over and over” and faith came to Abraham that way.
    We can get faith, Real faith, by hearing what the bible says on faith, again and again and again, until faith, according to the word that promses that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God,
    the more often we hear the promises of God, the more our Real faith comes to us.
    There is more to faith than these two points I have written, but they are part of it.

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  31. Pat

    I apologize for writing so much here, I see that this is Warnock’s blog, and not just a random blog on bentley, i came hurtling thru cyber space and saw the title bentley and i am too new to cyberspace stuff to have much etiquette as yet. I am sorry,
    however, I wanted to add re: faith, Real faith being
    a “substance” and “fully persuaded” and “no doubt at all” etc.and that it is a force like gravity and a law like gravity, ie.
    God has rules and laws shown in the bible that He follows, because He keeps his own rules.
    ie. when adam and eve blew it, God just couldnt rush in and fix it, ie. he couldnt say well, you are my only humans, and i guess you just werent ready for that 1 rule I gave you, so Ill just cancel and erase that, and we can start over.
    No! When God says, “if you do that, youre going die, buddy you can be sure, you’re going die”
    it took God centuries to complete and fulfill the plan HE had to fix that problem.
    Well when God says wihtout faith you cannot please him and that everything in HIs kingdom works by faith, and that faith only works by love, and that i you doubt, it is not Real faith, and when God requires according to his own rules to have a man or woman of faith on the earth to get anything done he has to do it in conjunction with them ie. with Abraham, God had to wait years and years sfor ABe to learn faith in order for aBe to receive just that one promise, and GOd waited because all of our salvation depended on ABe learning that, and on Abe receiving his miracle baby and on Abe obeying and believing God,
    so when God says thru Jesus you must have faith to do this or that, then you must have it, or this or that will not get done, and fi youhave it and use it, then it will get done, whatever you r it happens to be at the time.
    this is the truth according to the bible, it is some revelation on what faith is, it is Real, and it works, when Real faith hits your problem, after you release it out of your mouth, yo can test to see if it is real or not, by the results.

    Reply
  32. Blue, with a hint of amber

    Blue, with a hint of amber relates to my soccer team:
    http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/07/26/shrewsbury-2-blackpool-0-photos/6/
    Real faith is a Real thing, diff. from what you think it is.
    I know what you think because I used to think I knew what faith was, what the bible word meant, but I didn’t. I was wrong.
    If that pastor does not know how to operate in faith with God, he may get some souls saved and on their way to heaven, but he will not be able to help the peoples immediate physical plight.

    I do believe I know what faith is thanks. In our Church we have seen people healed of a heart condition, a wrist condition, a skin condition, a shoulder condition etc etc
    We have also had a large financial provision and completely paid off the amount outstanding on our building with £23k more than we needed.
    Read 2 Corinthians 11:23-33 and tell me if Paul had faith.
    And back to the Ethiopian pastor – have you ever lived in a poor country during a famine?
    My issue with any faith teaching is that appears, and I repeat, only appears to come from from first world wealthy christians with food in their bellies, steady jobs and good opportunities who have never really had to rely on God for anything more than a new Mercedes, while other people starve.

    Reply
  33. Pat

    Team colours?
    Thank God for healing in your church, and for provision.
    Do you know if these things came by faith, ie. if someone released faith on purpose, or if it might fit more into the category of Divine ‘freebies’ if you will. ie. A Godsend, as opposed to someone standing in faith to receive these miracles?
    I dont mean to offend re: talking like I have the market cornered on faith, etc.
    - – -nor do the people who teach on prosperity in the church etc, have the market cornered so to speak,
    I just mean that that pastor may or may not be responsible for difficulties his church are encountering in the country, etc. famine, etc.-did he teach them how to receive from the Lord, how to release faith,and did he teach ON faith enough so that the people heard enough so that they could have faith in the midst of those difficulties.
    If he didn’t know how himself, then he didn’t teach it, and then as a result his people didn’t know how to stand and see God’s salvation in the midst of that big problem.
    Did you know that the bible speaks a promise for the righteous in the Lord, that “in the midst of famine, they will have plenty” ?
    This is our promise, we are the righteous by faith, and we can have our needs met in any and every situation, I believe through God’s provision.
    “Always having all sufficiency, to give to every good work and charitable donation.” new testament.
    Well the same God who gave your church those healing miracles and provision, wants to meet All your needs according to HIs riches in Christ Jesus.
    This includes miraculously providing in the midst of famine, and actually turning the famine into something else, through what ever way or means God is showing to whoever is listening at the time.
    Someone needs to be listening and be God’s man on the earth, ie. God requires faith from a man,or woman, in order to do these things. It is His own rule and He doesnt break His own rules, He moves on our faith and does things according to what we ask if we release faith and dont doubt about it.
    Prosperity ruins a fool. It is difficult for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Why, becasue of the illustration Jesus gave, he showed the answer, the camel through the eye of the needle, the needle was a small doorway in bible times, in the wall of a city, that they used after the main gate was closed for the night, for example, a camel could get through this, but only if he had no packs on him.
    If the camel was loaded up,it could not get through that small gate, they would have to unload it to get it through.
    The same with someone who trusts in their riches, they must stop doing this in order to enter the kingdom of God,(camel through the small gate of the city wall) they must unload themselves by turning their trust and dependence over to the Lord, and completely away from their wealth.
    This is not easy to do if someone has trusted in their wealth for their whole life, to suddenly change and trust in God instead.
    It is not the wealth that is the issue, it is the trust, where is it placed.
    Money is not unGodly, otherwise He wouldnt have made so many people we know of int the bible wealthy.
    Trusting in riches is what makes it difficult for a rich man to change and place their trust in God instead.
    Riches cannot miraculously heal.etc., they have limitations, where God has none. He is able completely regarding any and everything.
    Material blessings are talked about cover to cover in the bible, promises of provision for all who enter into God’s covenant and it is in Jesus for all now, the covenant with better blessings and even better promises, etc.
    Wealth is in our inheritance in Jesus, it is included. This doesnt mean get rich quick, it requires obedience and also listening to God to do what He shows you to.
    There were famines in the bible completely predicted bythe Lord, and also provision made ready by God throught human agents, ie. Joseph.
    Some countries have not had Gods blessing country wide because of who they declare their God to be, etc. they do not honour the LORD, OR WORSHIP cows, etc. then they will have curses on their whole nation, the curse is a natural thing built into the earth too, it is what someone natually is in before they come to God.

    Reply
  34. Dave Warnock

    Pat,
    Your teaching is not orthodox Christianity.
    It is far from the normal Christian understanding of Scripture, Jesus and Faith.
    See word of faith movement – Google Search to get you started on finding critiques.
    Also see a post by “Blue with a hint of Amber”‘s post The Road to “Elder” ado: 10 reasons I hate prosperity teaching….
    This style of teaching is a recent development (mostly from the US) that is incompatible with the life and teaching of Jesus as well as the Church through the centuries.
    Rant all you want, this is incorrect teaching and you are not going to convert me.

    Reply
  35. Pat

    Re: ( your omment)
    ” My issue with any faith teaching is that appears, and I repeat, only appears to come from from first world wealthy christians with food in their bellies, steady jobs and good opportunities who have never really had to rely on God for anything more than a new Mercedes, while other people starve. ”
    Re the above, well appearances are wrong, the teacher I have listened to came from having no income but what he got by preaching, and he had a wife and three little kids to provide for, and that is in America, and think about it, he was depending on God for places to preach, and i am sure you and dave warnock and several others wouldnt invite him to your church to speak, so he was in tough times for awhile, until he believed for many people to teach, that God would bring him many people to teach, and no,
    this guy started out hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and nowhere to preach, when God called him. He knows what its like to be hard pressed against the wall by the adversay and oppositon, and sometimes when wealth comes along with it comes more opportunities for the opposition to try to come at you.
    He runs a teaching ministry worldwide.
    and No, the faith and believing in Gods’ prospering teaching does not come from the u.s. nor from teachers with money, it comes from the bible, plain and simple.
    —the faith teaching doesnt come from

    Reply
  36. Pat

    Dear Dave Warnock;
    Reply to your post to me,
    You said “rant all you want” -?
    Did I seem to be ranting to you? I am not, from my end, ranting that is, I wonder why you seemed to think so?, but I am sharing the wonderful things that I have heard and found right out of the bible, the same one you read.
    !
    No, this teaching does not come from anything recent, it was present and taught in the first 500 years of ‘christianity’, – and it goes back further than that, to the old testament and the patriarchs.
    No teacher started this anywhere recently, it is ancient teaching and practice, but stopped being taugh through the catholic church induced dark ages, so only recently did the church at large hear these things again.
    I think most of the criticism being aimed at them comes from people who have heard others criticize them, and without even studying what they say, these people parrot what others they know have said,
    ie. if some leader who is looked up to in one group, speaks against something, others in that same group tend to go along blindly with what has been said, without looking into the scriptures to find the truth themselves.
    This is a ‘fitting into the denom. stance’ type of thing, and if the person did not do that, they would be ostracized in some way or other.
    These things should not be, scriptural things should be investigate based on scripture and truth, not on what leaders in denom. speak about.
    It seems everyong is out to speak their ‘opinion’ and ‘justify it’, and even get upset if anyone has a diff. one, and even ostracize the person who has the diff. opinion.
    This is wrong, only scripture can show the truth, comparing scripture with scripture, and believe, I have studied what I heard this teacher teach and found it to be fully 100% without a doubt supported by scripture, not just one random verse, but from old testament to new testament, cover to cover.
    It is biblical, for sure.
    The blessing of the Lord does not depend on a country’s wealth, or even on what is happening at the time, ie. Joseph,
    the blessing was on him, he protected it by staying out of strife with his family no matter how mean they got toward him,
    He refused to sin agaisnt God and wreck it, he stayed with what he had been taught and knew from whoever taught him about God and his ways, Joseph honoured God, he refused to sleep with that married woman even though no on wold have known, because he did not want to sin against God.
    His blessing brought him to the top of that country, and he not only made Potiphar prosper until Pot. gave Joseph charge of his whole house and business, but he did the same in the jail, and the same in the King’s house,
    He made that kind so wealthy, Jospeh’s plant to avoid the famine caused Pharoah to become the owner of all the land of Egypt. He become the most wealthy Pharoah of history, because of Josephs’ plan from God.
    Any one of Joseph’s brothers could have had the blessing on them. It was available to them all, all the jews, but only JOseph was walking in and acting on his covenant blessing, and protecting it by living the way God would want him to, and by what God had taught him.
    Non of the other brothers had the blessing working through their lives, though, and in spite of all the dirty things that were done to Joseph, he still came out on top.
    The blessing raises someone, if they co operate with God, it raises them to the top,
    promotion comes from the Lord.
    God can overcome any and every obstacle, extreme poverty, famine, He of course can make ways where there are none.
    He did it for the hebes, and He says, He is the same God, yesterday, today and always. “I am the Lord, I change NOT.”

    Reply
  37. Blue, with a hint of amber

    Thanks for that post. I appreciate you engaging with me and allowing opportunity for discussion.
    Your post has the tone of a testimonial of an internet “get rich quick” scheme. I don’t mean to offend you, but the “Mr X used ot be poor until they found the magic secret” line is too common.
    You don’t find a poor prosperity teacher just like you don’t find a scruffy looking sales assistant in a clothes shop.
    I don’t doubt God’s gracious provision in situations and I don’t doubt God’s abundant blessing in others. But I just cannot agree that financial wealth and personal health are available to everyone within the gospel. I believe Jesus died to set me free from my sin and to allow me to enter into a relationship with God. I don’t think the bible adds in having more money to the deal – I get all I ever need in Him, for eternity, not in my wallet, for now.
    The fact someone is teaching the word of God to lots and lots of people is a wonderful thing and a great priviledge. But I don’t see the relationship to wealth at all, otherwise the apostle Paul would have been intensely wealthy.
    Any decent prosperity teacher will generate wealth, just like any decent charity speaker generates donations. I don’t see that as the response of God to faith, but rather, sadly, the response of sheep to a shepherd. But I think that the shepherd is leading them in the worng direction.
    By the way – I am not referring this to Todd Bentley – I just think he is unclear in terms used and a bit excitable. My issue is with the wider prosperity movement.
    Almost anything can be justified from “the bible” if you want to.
    This is a silly example.
    Read Matthew 27:5 then Luke 10:37b. What is “The bible” telling us to do?
    It is all “in the bible” – it depends which order you quote the verses and how you want to understand them.
    Show me an apostle in the new testament who was specifically financially blessed because of their faith.
    I don’t doubt we are to have faith, but I do think we are to seek first the kingdom of God, and all else will be added, not seek first a lot of money.

    Reply
  38. The Broken Man

    Dave, I agree with you wholeheartedly on your take on Todd Bentley, and wrote about him myself when he recently attended our town. Having read further, I can see that there are many interesting issues on your blog which I will be following – I love a good theological debate; and the issue of gender and headship is one which is of particular interest, as I am currently writing my MA dissertation in a related subject.
    I look forward to coming back here often – thank you for providing such a lively debating arena!
    (tips hat)
    The Broken Man
    http://theblogofabrokenman.blogspot.com/

    Reply

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